International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Knotting Concepts & Explorations => Topic started by: Sweeney on January 19, 2009, 08:52:18 AM

Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on January 19, 2009, 08:52:18 AM
I can appreciate that a lot of work has gone into this but if the object is to index Ashley completely then forward references should fall out as knots are added. For example there is no need to say which knots are started with a RT as this would be referenced when these knots are indexed - to arrive at the list above one would simply search this field. Again I strongly recommend designing the method of storing and retrieving this data before going any further. Happy to help.

Barry
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: PwH on January 19, 2009, 12:39:33 PM
Barry,

that sounds like a very good idea, but I have no idea how to do it nor the time to learn. Will you do this? I will give you all the information I have to facilitate this.

  Cheers, Peter
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on January 19, 2009, 01:36:08 PM
Hi Peter

I suggest we collaborate  - there is not much to learn to get the data recorded - but do you have a copy of MS Excel? I'll happily design a sheet to get going and perhaps we can agree (with others joining in if they wish) how best to divide the work. Once we are well underway I suggest asking for comments on the methodology as once we've got that about right not only can the job proceed apace but verifying and editing can also get under way. Incidentally Excel is not essential - a word processor would do and the final form of the index can be agreed once the basic work is nearing completion (I have in mind that this lends itself to a computer solution not a printed one). To start with I'll put some knots into a s/sheet to demonstrate and test - this I can email to you and post a text/pdf version but the latter would have limited search capability.

Barry
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: DerekSmith on January 19, 2009, 02:55:31 PM
If you do not have MS Excel, could I suggest that you work with OpenOffice which works with the same files but is totally free.  I use it for all my spreadsheet and word processor work and it can export/import in MS format if you want.

As for a database, we are probably not too far away from the Guild waking up fully to the importance of the Internet, and with this realisation will come the opportunity of having Guild based databases served by SQL and PHP so that Guild users can carry out searches through the Guild website.  This has the advantage that each user does not have to carry an up-to-date copy of the database on their computer and they would always be accessing the most uptodate version whenever they did a search through the website.

If you are thinking of this sort of usability, then perhaps inviting Mel to help with the setup might help in the future.

Derek

http://openoffice.org-2009.com/index.asp?aff=101&camp=gg_oo_uk&se=google (http://openoffice.org-2009.com/index.asp?aff=101&camp=gg_oo_uk&se=google)
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on January 19, 2009, 06:37:00 PM
Derek

I agree - to start with I'd like to try out a simple flat file in Excel to get a better idea of how to record the basic info.

Mel

Any help appreciated, please.

Barry
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Knot Head on January 20, 2009, 07:06:04 PM
That wont be too hard to do. As you can most likely tell this Forum board is built on php with mysql on the backside holding the data stored from all the posts. My website is based on php and mysql... If you were to build this project using both of these fabulous web programming languages, you would be able to build the web data base program in a fair amount of time and then populate the data base much quicker.

While building the initial data base in a flat file would give you a better idea on how to build the data base structure in mysql, I would not recommend using a flat file for the sole purpose of the data base itself. Excel will not handle that much data being served up on a server that will most likely have a very large scale amount of users accessing it continually 24/7. The load on the server would be greatly diminished. When the server starts to experience a heavy load, then the operations within the server will slow down producing a very slow response time across the DNS. As you will be able to tell with building the flat file data base, that after it starts to get full, even on its own it will take some time to start up just by itself.

Using php and mysql is the way to go for such a task as you all speak of. I love programming with both of them when it comes to building websites and ecommerce solutions. Both solutions can be secured using the HTTPS for secure logins and for secure site roaming and administrations. Any data that sits behind the HTTPS is encrypted at the 64 bit level as a start. Say you open a little ecommerce end, or you are just surfing the site and the many different pages, all that is encrypted. Every piece of data that is sent out from behind the HTTPS stays encrypted until it reaches for example your credit card processing company that then has a key on their side to decrypt the data sent to them. Just another really great feature of php and mysql working together as a team.

Well just my 2 pennies worth as from my own experience. If you were to build this application, php and mysql is the way to go. I have been using both for years now and stand behind it 100%...

Brian...
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: PwH on January 20, 2009, 10:02:00 PM
Hi Barry, Derek, Brian and others,

Yes I do have Excel, so no problem there, Also have Access which I believe is a database app although it looks like a fancy version of Excel to me? Would that be any better to use for a pilot?

Good to see a general level of agreement on the way to go forward, lets go for it!

Cheers, Peter H

Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: DerekSmith on January 21, 2009, 10:09:36 AM
Brian,

How might a group of volunteers, not conversant with the technicalities of php and sql to your level, best proceed ?  Or would everyone need to learn these systems?

Derek
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on January 21, 2009, 10:29:11 AM
Brian

Am I right in thinking that SQL and PHP would, in an application like this, be used to front end a data file? If so are there any particular constraints on the file format? Excel is an easy to use tool for gathering data which can then be transferred to virtually any format (if necessary via an intermediate transfer format) such as dBase for example. I don't see a need for a relational database although Access could be used if that simplifies things.

Barry
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on February 15, 2009, 06:09:51 PM
This is a call for volunteers to help with the Index project. I have developed an Excel spreadsheet to record basic details about all of the knots in ABOK (with the possible exception of some of the designs using multiple knots) but including every number, knot or not  and simply showing fastenings which are not knots (in a minute I'm going to get the k and the n the wrong way round!) as just that. The sheet uses a variety of codes to save typing - these can be replaced in the final version with text.  To convert to MySql should be straightforward but Excel provides a good editing tool for now. Notes are included on a separate sheet and comments are there to help. No experience of Excel beyond being able to type in columns is needed (and if you don't have Excel then another program such as Open Office is just as good.

I will co-ordinate who is doing what using a control sheet and once we have finished a substantial chunk I will ask Mel to put the sheet on the website for downloading, commentary (always welcome anyway) and error correction. More about that later. I think that up to 6 volunteers initially and let's see how we get on (more than that once I have made sure I can cope). Rather than post on the forum please email me (barry@lizziemint.co.uk) and I'll send you a blank sheet for completion. Please let me know whch Chapter you would like to undertake (I suggest sticking to one at first) - Chapters 3 and 4 I have done already and Chapters 1 and 2 I would leave until last as the knots there are a repeat of knots covered in later chapters (the sheet cross refers to the prime number for a duplicate knot rather than record the detail twice or more - the prime number is the one in the Chapter dealing with that type of knot eg Bends).

So first come first served drop me an email with the Chapter you would like to do and I'll take it from there.

Barry
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on February 19, 2009, 12:36:49 PM
No volunteers so far - has everybody lost interest?
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: admin on February 23, 2009, 09:59:37 PM
If the initial data is gathered using Excel, I can upload it into a MySQL table using something called a cvs import to get you going. Once the initial data has been assembled, it can also be examined with a view to the best way to store it in MySQL. I appreciate that a flat file might, at first, seem to be the best way to proceed. And it's certainly the simplest approach. However, if this is truly intended to be a long term project with the capacity to handle a whole range of searches and queries, then a series of relational tables right from the start might be the best way to future proof the whole thing.

(For the less technically-minded, relational tables are simply a way of storing, for example, the ABOK reference name of a particular knot in one place, the information on its construction in another, it's potential uses in a 3rd table etc etc. Splitting the data up in this fashion greatly reduces the amount of work that the server needs to do to provide answers over a whole range of questions)

Once the data was imported into MySQL, attention would need to switch away from Excel and over to the central online system for all additions and amendments. Initially I could either write, or source, a basic front end system for all of the data management - ideally accessed by authorised individuals only using a username/password combination. Longer term, a more sophisticated admin interface could be gradually added. If this was tackled on a modular basis, it would limit any additional expenditure from the Guild's point of view and go some way to ensuring that the right tools were being built in the most appropriate way.

As soon as the data is online, work could also begin to allow users to run searches etc - either on the public site or within a restricted area.

Someone mentioned using Access. Frankly, if the intent is to get this online asap, I wouldn't bother. Access isn't well suited for online storage or usage - especially on the igkt.net server. Stick with Excel.

Ultimately, a full centralised, dynamic, online system is highly feasible. However, until I see some sample data, I can't really advise as to how it should eventually be organised other than to echo Knot Head's suggestions that a combination of PHP and MySql would be the way to go.

Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on February 24, 2009, 08:46:07 AM
Many thanks for the reply Mel.  So far I have only one volunteer (Squarerigger who is looking at Chapter 40 - probably the biggest job of all so I'm grateful) but I've completed 4 chapters so this should give you an idea of the data being recorded. I'll email you a copy of the spreadsheet to have a look at for now - if it's worthwhile splitting this into related tables then I should be able to easily do this in Excel for uploading - at first glance this might be a starter where a knot has several names or is duplicated - can't think of any other one-to-many relationships but I'll think about it. If anyone is interested in looking at the data rather than doing any recording let me know.

Barry
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: admin on February 24, 2009, 02:36:54 PM
It's been suggested that the latter part of this thread might be better placed in the Computing board to allow technical discussion centring around IT to continue without causing aggravation to other posters.

Does anyone object?

Are there any suggestions for a suitable 'split point' where the discussion becomes more IT than knots?

Mel
Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on February 24, 2009, 03:38:48 PM
I suggest from reply #46 onward - I think that was when I started the techie discussion.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 03, 2009, 02:28:24 PM
An update. Chapters 3,4,5,20,21,22,26 and 40 are now either complete or being completed. Leaving Chapters 1 and 2 until last (as they largely repeat later knots) does anyone else wish to join the 4 of us currently working on this?

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 03, 2009, 04:31:12 PM
i think that we could / should include page nos., and that the person doing a chapter should also include chaptNo. and chaptName; or they should be added by 'collector' in bulk as 1 spreadsheet would contain before joining to the rest of the heard.  Then, when broken up into sorting on any of the columns in spread sheet(sort by name, use, page, chapter etc. it would be sorted, searchable by chap etc.  This would also give more friendly info base, introduction to the lacing (by descriptive chap name), and perhaps help verify if that was what reader was searching for.  Perhaps should be more than 1 altNames field, so that if more than 1 name, could alphabetically sort to both, or dbl. entry just for same (copy above row verbatim, except for the different altName.

You can export from excel with varied delimiters (in addition to space) such as .csv (comma separated values), txt(tab delimiter) etc.  But, there are also more powerful free converters.  Also, xml might be the way to go at some point? 

Should allow, make space, implemeant, other reference picture links or info links.  After assembling all of this, getting it to mysql etc.; you are 1 step away from making a static form, to fill with the dynamic data from mysql, and putting a picture on it for anyone coming to this site.  Having most of the pix links to this site eventually  would look good, and further set this place as the recognized authority.  Being recognized so, could increase site in terms of it's size and readership as well as members of site, igkt etc.    Also, cross referancing to other books would be good in future.  If someone was looking at book to buy, site to go to, they could search target knots and see what book or site has most of type of lacings they seek.  So, not to increase the workload, but if someone is doing a chapter that they have chosen by familiarity or fascination, and it is no workload added, jsut work saved later, perhaps they could be included.  In some of the working knots there are safety and usage icons that might also be faithfully noted, and/or extend those icons to more knots, or choose separate of same on broader base, to indicate safety and usage.  The more meaningful stuff sifted out on a pass thru, the better the potential of the final form.  So, perhaps a larger 'skeleton' to hang stuff on, but optional to fill.  Just do what you have the most powerful assets towards on the optional stuff, too much trouble save for another pass(er).  Hopefully once enough is showable and running, more will add in what is easy for them...

We might seek out others, that might have come and gone; because this is the stuff that hasn't been here, but should have been.  i have a few people in mind to bounce the idea off of, but think everyone hear should have '1st shot' etc.  It seems like at this step of the evolution, bored members that might not read here - browser just shortcuts right to "Fancy and Decorative Knotwork" forum, never sees rest etc.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 03, 2009, 06:28:27 PM
I am with you on this and perhaps it would be helpful if I set out where we are and where I see this project going.  First off I have a control sheet which shows a lsit of the chapters in ABOK (number and title), the knot numbers in each chapter and who is analysing which.  At the first pass I would hope that as well as knot names and some other simple data we can also note those entries which are not knots (eg cleats, fastenings) and the primary entry for each knot (eg the bowline at 1010) so that duplicates refer back to a primary entry - it will be interesting to see how many actual knots there are. Perhaps we should note knot designs as such ie a piece made from a number of knots such as a wall hanging. Page numbers are not in the spreadsheet at present but I don't mind adding those at the end in one pass. The aim at this stage is to create a list of all 3855 or so knot entries with basic data about each. 

This will then be made available for initial checking and validation then exported into MySql tables to allow for expansion eg the names of a knot will be in a related table so that additions will be simplified as will searching. This gives us a good jumping off point to add,enhance and correct data whilst also providing a repository for knots not in ABOK (though many may predate ABOK in publication), perhaps with numbers starting at 4000. I am all for adding links to pictures, videos etc whether on the IGKT site or elsewhere but this is a later phase.

I should add that other than informally Council are not aware of this project - they will have to approve any expenditure in due course such as adding to the website.  But I think it will give the project some real clout if we can show that a first pass through ABOK has been completed and this is not just pie in the sky.

Finally thanks TheTreeSpyder for your helpful post and for volunteering to join the merry band.

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: KnotMe on March 03, 2009, 06:56:01 PM
I'm having trouble visualizing both what you are doing and how you are doing it, thus making it very difficult to help.

I take it the four of you actively working on the project are sharing an excel spreadsheet back and forth?

Would it work to post your column headings and a line or 2 of data just to give us an impression of what you're after?

Won't different editions cause troubles with page number references?

I don't know if it helps in any way, but I just went through ABoK looking for mystic knot mentions (http://www.knottynotions.com/mystic/nomenclature-ashley) is this the kind of thing you are looking for?  Sort of?  8)
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 03, 2009, 07:10:45 PM
When someone volunteers I send them a spreadsheet (without data but with headings and notes) to complete for a chapter or chapters. When this is returned the knot numbers will be in one or 2 blocks so I copy these to the master sheet which has all 3855 knot numbers in it (and by now some data). I don't know to what extent page numbers vary between editions - something I will check though before spending energy on a waste of time. If you have an email address listed (should have looked shouldn't I?) I'll send you a blank sheet with a few entries copied back from the master for illustration.  If you want to have a go please do  - just let me know which chapter you are doing to avoid duplication or if you want to just have a look at it feel free. In answer to your last question - pretty much yes.

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 08, 2009, 12:11:11 AM
This is what i got going (but added the last 3 columns myself).

http://www.mytreelessons.com/abokChap21.JPG (http://www.mytreelessons.com/abokChap21.JPG)

Some things don't have names.  The drop down choice box is shown for Groundline.  Now, i'd think we'd categorize that as a BindinG knot (choice BG on menu, like it's brethren #1674 that i favour, or the Constrictor itself); but it's popular use is as more of a Hitch (H).

i think this level is a good place to put in page nos., seeing at this level they are all together.  Just get your chapter done, mark the page nos. for the first knot on each page down the column of the spreadsheet.  Then, copy; then paste each value down the column until you hit the next and it is rapid fire done.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 08, 2009, 08:35:11 AM
I see from the JPEG that you've dropped the Prime Knot column which is used to identify duplication. I'm sorry but I don't see any point in listing the same name many times unless they are variations identified as such - any slight variation in spelling will give the impression of a different knot. When this is turned into a database it will cross refer a searchg for knot #xxx back to the original entry - if a list of all entries eg for a clove hitch is required then this can easily be provided from the name or any knot number which refers to a clove hitch. Having thought about it although page numbers can easily be included I am not convinced that they add anything useful any more than they would to a dictionary. For those who have not seen the opriginal spreadsheet and notes this may not make a lot of sense I'm afraid - if anyone would like a copy please let me know but PLEASE don't amend the spreadsheet layout without reference to me or else this will become an impossible task - once an initial pass has been done through ABOK and some basic checking done then conversion to a data file will give access to the data so that it can be corrected, augmented and expanded. But as with any computer exercise there has to be standardisation (even if it proves to be wrong - it can always be corrected later).

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 08, 2009, 09:30:22 AM
I am not trying to be secretive about this nor am I a 'control freak' (at least not the last time I looked!).  To help I have posted a copy of the blank spreadsheet onto a Wiki page so that everyone can at least see the details - but if you want a copy to complete please email me (barry@lizziemint.co.uk) so that I know who is doing what. The Wiki is www.knotindex.pbwiki.com (http://www.knotindex.pbwiki.com)

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 08, 2009, 10:28:20 AM
Ummmmmm i forgot to spread open the prime column, it is still there; and i put the page etc. stuff on the end columns, where i can easily delete or hide,,
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Knot Head on March 08, 2009, 11:08:13 AM
Hi everyone. Sorry I have not been able to get back to this topic until now. I have been very busy with a client and their server for the past two weeks, or so. I have some responses to a few of the above posts. Thanks for replying by the way.

Quote
How might a group of volunteers, not conversant with the technicalities of php and sql to your level, best proceed ?  Or would everyone need to learn these systems?

Derek

To proceed we would need someone, or a team of someones who know the in's and outs of PHP and MySQL and how to program in that language. Next I would like with any other client design a basic layout that would be similar to a wiki but have the feel of a blog like word press. Then on the back end, or the administration end their would be 2 or 3 ways to log into the system,
1. Administrator - The one who would be webmastering the website itself.
2. Moderator Login - The ones who will be in charge of helping keep the site and it's contents and members in order.
3. Author Login - The ones who will be adding and editing their published work to the site.

The Administrator would be the only one who would have to be familiar with php, mysql and some html. That person would also be in charge of the backend of the system itself. The moderators and below would only have to have a little familiarity with some html because of the online word editor that I have in mind can be used in a what you see is what you get fashion, or by entering raw html code. The online word editor that I have in mind is much like the one you use to post here with one thing different. You can switch to a panel, or window that will allow you to enter your own html code so that you can customize your entry with more finite details and accuracy. The online word editor I have in mind is called TinyMCE and it is designed using JavaScript. It has the basic feel as the microsoft word interface does at a very basic level. Another good addition would be a way to upload a small photo or picture of the finished knot. Just an idea to think about.

Derek I hope that answers your questions.

Barry;
Quote
Am I right in thinking that SQL and PHP would, in an application like this, be used to front end a data file? If so are there any particular constraints on the file format? Excel is an easy to use tool for gathering data which can then be transferred to virtually any format (if necessary via an intermediate transfer format) such as dBase for example. I don't see a need for a relational database although Access could be used if that simplifies things.

Barry

PHP will act as the front end feed for the MySql that all will be able to view. File formats that can be converted, csv(Excel), txt(Text File)... Those are the best for conversion factors. MySql can interpret those files the quickest and with accuracy. dBase would not be a good one to use for the conversion since MySql can only interpret dBase from a command line interface only and not all of us can do that, nor do alot of us have Linux for that. If you use Access to build your data for submission it can then be converted to a csv file or even a .txt file. Which ever way is easiest for you and your entries to get done.

I hope that helps out Barry.

You must keep in mind that the Abook is very extensive with data and illustrations. There will be a very heavy use for something like this online for sure. PHP and MySql can handle that kind of use for years to come. I can put it this way, people will wear out before the website will. The two elements used are very complimentary to each other and work well in an industrialized atmosphere. I think that the database itself would only be as large as 5 to 6 megs, just a guestament though.

Most of what I have said here is very much on the I.T. level. But these are just suggestions for all of us to consider along our path to index the Abook. The object for me is to make that task easier and quicker by making suggestions as I have. I don't mind explaining it either. I really think this is a great idea for indexing the Abook and a very solid way to accomplish this task in an efficient way for all those working on the Abook project. I believe this could also generate funds for the Guild to promote membership on a higher level than what we have now. This can offer the member a way to collaborate with other members, it can also cause great discussions among all of us knot heads. Well just some suggestions, or ideas to consider.

Brian...   
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 08, 2009, 11:52:12 AM
Thanks - that was very helpful.  I have had an e-mail exchange with Mel (Webmistress) about how to structure the MySql files and I have a draft (as yet unseen by other than me as it's not yet complete). You're quite right  - a set of relational tables will give unlimited (within reason!) room for expansion and although I have never tried this with MySql I have bult some big databases in past years using dBase and Dataease.  The Excel file is to build a basic framework only (a couple of macros to clean up some issues and the data will soon be ready for the tables in MySql using CSV (which is why I asked that knot names in the sheet be separated by "-" to avoid spurious commas). I'll sort these out at the end. My only worry is that we digress too early into a discussion about what to record (if it's there and we don't need it it can be reomoved in a mouse click, if it's not there then adding data should not be too difficult) we will never finish the first pass. As an example I note that TheTreeSpyder has included the graphics used by Ashley (Anchor etc). If that is felt to be desirable then text which is meaningful would be better (eg weak) then we can continue that theme later with knots not in ABOK - but I think that if we are going down this route I would prefer to use our own terminology based on our own assessment rather than risk infringement of copyright.

 But any changes to a contributor's worksheet sheet must be done to the master copy as well so if there is information to be added to the spreadsheet ie additional columns (there is no need to remove columns until the end if at all) would forum members post here please and if there is a general consensus I will add it in (adding the data to completed Chapters can be a mini project in itself). What is the feeling about page nos? (I haven't had chance to check yet whether they vary between editions but if they do then this may be more confusing than helpful).

Barry

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 08, 2009, 02:13:46 PM
As i remeber the page nos. are the same in editions i've seen.  We wouldn't want any infringemeant of course; and this is why i put 'quotes' seperate from notes, so that they could be handled differently or even discarded if need by.  By including the icons, i'm trying to do the author honor, by respectably noting stuff inthe quaint way he did. i thought about placing 'weak' etc. in there, but figured i'd maintain the original perspective,a nd that if allthe like stuff was named alike, it could be renamed later globally, the best way i thought was to use theauthor's own un-ambiguous terms. Though, this is a new age apporach; i wouldn't want the output to somehow be so sterile; away from the original feel and intent.

Overall, i would hope that the project increases ABoK circulation, usaeage and reflection.  There is a ton of stuff in there.  but the ominous size etc. comes across less accessible like a referance book rather than a common tool.  But, then too; that large size gives a hefty, real feel to the writings about power etc. when holding the large work, than viewing on a computer screen as it is.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Knot Head on March 09, 2009, 12:17:35 AM
Hi all. I have attached a file that contains a sample of the MySQL database schema dump file in .txt format. This .txt file contains the MySQL commands and instructions for each table to be created.

The overall schema is very basic. I only put this here to show you how easy it would be for Mel or anyone else that should be involved in the creation process. The sample schema was done with a program called SQLyog Enterprise Edition, I also have another program I use for fast preset builds of simple websites called PHPRunner. I used these two programs to create a simple schema layout of a database.

The relations are pretty much unlimited, but has to be established at the beginning of creation. I fear that changing how the relations work later on would be a bit labor intensive even for me.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 09, 2009, 09:12:24 AM
The text file is interesting - I don't have a Mysql GUI tool and will leave development to Mel in due course. The basic file creation is (I suppose inevitably) similar to VB, Pascal and most structured database packages I've seen. Although I don't think relationships will need changing as long as we get the design right to start with, that this is difficult is something to consider. Although I can use Excel, Word or whatever to set out out the data tables and their relationships it would be useful to find a simple graphics tool designed to do this (I used to use Visio but it's too expensive to buy personally just for that).

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 19, 2009, 09:23:21 PM
Another reason to mark the chapters, would be because most the chapters from the 3rd on are for a specific range of mechanic and/ or uses.  Therefore they are already divided into groupings of likenesses that would give some definition and understanding to them as a whole as well as separately.  Perhaps we could have our own comments to offer observations of the similarities and differences, evolutions of thought from 1 lacing to the next etc. that make up a series of like lacings -already broken into chapters for us!  So, once the database was populated, it could be indexed by the name field as an index, or be indexed by number, for a mass table of contents, of the lacings; then divide at chapters.  Having a blurb of words at the chapter separations, then the numbered names below that break at 3 across or whatever could be a good thing, with about no more effort.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on March 20, 2009, 09:41:20 AM
I use a list of chapters to keep track of who is doing what (this list also shows the starting and ending knot number of each chapter) - this should be easy to incorporate into the greater scheme of things when we build the database so that you could for example list all knots in a chapter - though many will be duplicated across more than one chapter. Perhaps more important is once we have index ABOK we can move on to add the knots not there and modern usage (I strongly support Geoff Budworth's view expressed in the latest KM - ABOK is frozen in time, knotting needs to move on).

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 20, 2009, 11:49:31 AM
i agree; but still too think we should sift finer at the same time, as to not lose lessons of the past.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Thonord on November 20, 2009, 08:35:37 PM
Bumping this up again. cuz I'm a newbie here.
What happened. Why the hibernation?
Is there anything a newbie, with time to spare can do?
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: deke on November 26, 2009, 06:03:22 AM
yes I was intrigued by the idea of abok being electronically available.. at least the names and numbers and perhaps a comment section to refer to (via this site) when being referred by someone commenting eg abok 1010 w/o having to riffle through the actual book... (although i enjoy that as well)
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on November 27, 2009, 01:44:38 PM
This project has been moribund since March this year simply because volunteers have not been forthcoming. I was taken seriously ill in early May and now as Hon. Secretary I have little time to devote to the project though I still have the files etc.  In short the idea was to use Excel to record a list of all knots in Ashley but identifying duplicates as far as possible and recognising that we would make a number of mistakes which would need correction. The only exclusion was for knotted article designs which are built from other knots not least because they cannot easily be named and identified. Although I cannot do the idata input I will continue to act as ringmaster for those who wish to do some work - I allocate a chapter in Ashley and send a blank spreadsheet to the volunteer and when complete I check it (only a cursory check to make sure that the principles have been followed) and then add that data to the master. Once the Excel list is complete we can move on to checking editing etc before publishing the list using a database (Excel was only ever intended as a data capture tool as it is in common use).

I will need a few days to refresh my failing memory and dust off the files but if there are volunteers out there please let me know (secretary@igkt.net) and I'll get in touch with you personally.  Incidentally I haven't put the blank spreadsheet on the web so that I can keep track of who is doing what and avoid duplication.

One last thing although Excel 2007 is the software of choice I have in the past taken data in Excel 2003 and MS Works and could use a Word table or even a simple csv file created in Windows Notepad so don't be put off by the need to have Excel.

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Wed on December 06, 2009, 09:51:52 AM
I understand that this specific project is confined to ABOK. But I would like to voice a humble opinion.

Even though the great book is the most comprehensive work to date, why stop there? How about a database in which all the knots of ABOK is presented, and then as many knots that are not? In such a database, additional information could be added, as names in other languages, suitability in various materials and so forth.

To be honest, the book is lacking in post Ashley materials. And actually, some knots have been discovered/invented since. Who knows, maybe another one will se the light of day.

Regarding databases, excel and volunteers, Wiki springs to mind. As a package, The fileformat involved would be at the backend (no need to muck about with proprietary fileformats), and volunteers can do a little bit of work whenever suitable. Most importantly, no one person need, or should, pull all the weight. That is harmful to the project when he gets tired or fall off the web so to speak.

Through a web interface no one need to be excluded who would want to give a hand. To me it would be valuable to be able to make searches on materials used, conditions for use, name (in various languages), ABOK number, tied in bight or at end. Well the list could be made long. But I believe a wiki could fit the bill.

To make the information even more accessible to people outside the knotting community, the knots could be presented at the already established Wikipedia and then do the indexing there as well ... Some knots are already up.

Best regards!
Wed
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on December 06, 2009, 06:14:28 PM
This project started by looking at Ashley but with the intention of moving on once that was complete and checked. A project like this needs someone to hold the reins and ensure that we are all working to the same brief (I have neither the time nor the inclination to "do all the work") - if not then we will get nowhere. There has to be a logical sequence and although the approach I advocate may be idiosyncratic and not to everyone's taste without some organisation the project will be chaotic. The file format is important only to the extent that everybody captures the same raw data using the same analysis - once all the data is available electronically the analysis, search options etc can be set to suit almost anything but the main grind is accurate data capture. Excel is used because it requires no programming expertise and is widely available.  It is by no means the only software that can be used to capture the data.  Ashley is organised into chapters and when someone volunteers I allocate a chapter to them to complete in their own time - this avoids duplication. So far though I have allocated several chapters and nothing has been done by the people who volunteered so this work is still available. I don't see that a Wiki page would offer any advantages until perhaps the data needs to be examined when we can use our own website anyway.

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on February 04, 2010, 03:05:01 PM
We move into the 21st century at last! With assistance from Andy Spencer we have a database for data capture on this website. However I am awaiting a reply from Faber & Faber (the UK publishers) about copyright so the database cannot (easily) be found without the URL. I do not want this published but anyone who wishes to help with this data collection should drop me an email or personal message please and I'll send you a link. If this ends up being published by default then I'm afraid that we will have to put password control in place until we are clear that we are not infringing copyright.

The grouping of knots in the drop down menus was mine - please stick with it for now and let's try and get a substantial amount of data input, then we can look at the finer points about editing, presentation etc.

Barry
Hon. Sec.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Frayed Knot Arts on May 11, 2010, 11:28:06 PM
Anthing further as to copyright info?
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: KnotMe on May 12, 2010, 04:30:00 AM
here's a thought.  how about google docs?  you can selectively enable people for sharing.  requiring people to have google accounts should be no more onerous than requiring them to have access to particular editions of excel.  if you want to switch, you can always save it out as comma delimited for transfer.  then the work will always be in the cloud for all participants to see.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Sweeney on May 12, 2010, 09:15:33 AM
I wrote to the publishers some time ago but as they do say it will take at least 4 months to respond to an email I am not holding my breath.  The Council use Google docs for sharing information but it seems to be clumsy for collaboration rather than just sharing. I am happy to pass the link to the area of our website on the same basis that I would have to allow access to Google.

Barry
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Knot Head on August 05, 2010, 07:39:48 AM
Hello everyone. Sorry it has been a while since my last communication. I have been busy with the job as of late and working on my own projects for my website. With that in mind, I will convey that this project I am still working on but mostly complete building and it is functional and working at 98%... I have on KHWW as most of you know, The Grid Maker made by Tim Alwine & Son. In a forum discussion we had recently, we talked of a Grid Maker Catalog of a sort. Well, I thought at first this is going to be a box of worms waiting to roll out and dump on the ground for me. But out of plain curiosity I built one with a wiki type concept and approach. This project is very custom and more suited for the knot tier and leather braider to upload and catalog their grids they make with the Grid Maker.

I will have the Grid Catalog out this Friday for use by my website members to try out and see if they like how it works or not. I will post here to let you all know how it worked out for week or two. On Friday, if any of you are members of KHWW the Grid Catalog will be open to try out. You will be able to gain access to it from the Navigation Menu after you login to KHWW.

In the mean time, if this application works and serves the need of my site, I was thinking of building a similar application for the Abook Index. Now I can add another login page to it so that only the ones that are assigned to the work can gain access to the Abook Index. I believe I will leave this decision to the other members here that are committed to this kind of project on whether I should proceed with building the database and then the pages to fit the database structure.

Brian
 :)
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Knot Head on August 12, 2010, 09:44:54 PM
I am so sorry for having to ask this. But I have totally forgotten as to the reason why we are wanting to index the Abook. Could someone help remind me?

Brian...
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: KnotMe on August 13, 2010, 04:33:13 AM
I thought it had something to do with putting names to the numbers and getting a proper count of the knots actually in the book, but maybe that's just what I want an index of ABoK for.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008 - IT issues
Post by: Knot Head on August 13, 2010, 10:29:52 AM
Thanks Carol. I appreciate the respond.

Brian...