International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: admin on February 22, 2009, 11:13:59 PM

Title: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 22, 2009, 11:13:59 PM
Good evening

I hope I'm not disturbing any ongoing discussions but some of you may have noticed that a new sub-board (Fancy Knotwork Tutorials) has been added to the Fancy and Decorative Knotwork board. This new board was actually created at the request of some of the posters on the Decorative Knotwork board but I felt it was only polite to offer the same option here also.

If people wish to post short practical knot tutorials, or links to tutorials, would a similar sub-board help?

And whilst I have your attention, the decorative knotters have a rather snappy description for their board. The practical knotters, it seems, have nothing to say about their board.  ;)

As an non-knotter (does knitting count?), it seems to me that new posters might need a little help with defining what kinds of topics that are open for discussion on this board. Maybe some examples of practical knot usages such as climbing or angling etc. in the board description could stimulate some new threads/discussions that might otherwise end up in ChitChat.

Either way, if you would like a new sub-board or have a description for this board that you would like used, please let me know.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programmes...

Mel


Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: SS369 on February 23, 2009, 12:37:15 AM
We really need to get some cord or rope into your hands and get you hooked on tying.

Thank you for the sub-board and maybe we will end up with a continuing to grow selection of tutorials.

Good way to spread the wealth.

Scott
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: skyout on February 23, 2009, 05:59:40 AM
Thanks again, Mel.

For your consideration to be moved into Fancy Knotwork Tutorials, here are some other threads by members that have tutorials, descriptions to tie a specific knot or links to tutorials.

Identify and instructions? (Rose knots)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1134.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1134.0)
    
Knot tying Instruction
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1013.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1013.0)

Netting for Glass Bottles (this was in Practical Knots, but I believe it fits here as well)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1076.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1076.0)

Rope Fender, the making of (this was in Chit Chat)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1135.msg7729#msg7729 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1135.msg7729#msg7729)

Chest beckets / books
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1125.msg7707#msg7707 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1125.msg7707#msg7707)

Tudor Rose Knot-KM100
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1142.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1142.0)

Thanks for everything you're doing to keep the site up to date and safe!

Rick
skyout
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 23, 2009, 12:41:22 PM
I've moved all of the topics you listed to the Fancy Knotwork Tutorials board with the exception of "Netting for Glass Bottles":

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1076.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1076.0)

I hesitated to move that one as you said that it belonged in both Practical Knots and the new tutorial board. Unfortunately, I can't copy a topic so that it can be found in 2 boards at once, so I thought I'd better check before I moved it.

I'm also wondering if I made an incorrect assumption when I created the new tutorial board. At the time, I thought that we could end up with at least 2 of these tutorial boards - one for fancy knots and one for practical knots. So it seemed logical to make the new board a sub of Fancy Knotwork. Having now discussed this with 1 or 2 people, would 1, all-encompassing, Knotting Tutorials board be more appropriate? I can easily rename the new board and move it to that it is at the same level as the Fancy Knotwork and Practical Knots board.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 23, 2009, 12:45:36 PM
We really need to get some cord or rope into your hands and get you hooked on tying.

What with the knitting, crocheting, gardening, doll house miniatures, jewellery making and various IT related activities, I think my family might be tempted to a tie a hangman's noose just for you if you got me involved in yet another hobby. Now, if you could somehow tie me a 36 hour day, I'd be definitely interested....  ;)
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: skyout on February 23, 2009, 04:57:51 PM
Thanks Mel,

I hesitate to suggest how to set up categories or even name titles as I feel I'm still a newbie with a whole lot to learn. I'm hoping some of the real experts jump in here and start helping. I do appreciate all the hard work you're doing for us.

I found a few more threads with links to Fancy and Decorative Knotwork tutorials:

Herringbone and Houndstooth Braid
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1274.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1274.0)

Bell Rope
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1113.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1113.0)

survival bracelet
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1245.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1245.0)

Cufflinks
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1191.15 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1191.15)

Thanks again for all your help!

Rick
skyout
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 23, 2009, 05:33:08 PM
I found a few more threads with links to Fancy and Decorative Knotwork tutorials:

Herringbone and Houndstooth Braid
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1274.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1274.0)

Bell Rope
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1113.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1113.0)

survival bracelet
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1245.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1245.0)

Cufflinks
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1191.15 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1191.15)


All moved.

Quote
Thanks again for all your help!

You're very welcome.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: skyout on February 23, 2009, 06:46:48 PM
Hi Mel,

Now that they're getting a new home and they're all together, it looks like we had a lot more than we knew about. This is going to make it a lot easier for everyone to locate these fine tutorials. Thanks again for setting this up!!! Great job!!!

I just found another tutorial for Fancy and Decorative Knotwork:

Pineapple Knot
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=994.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=994.0)

Rick
skyout
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 23, 2009, 09:33:02 PM

Quote
I just found another tutorial for Fancy and Decorative Knotwork:
Pineapple Knot
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=994.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=994.0)

Moved.

Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Andre van der Salm on February 24, 2009, 12:23:14 AM
Just keep on moving  ;D

Andr
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 24, 2009, 01:19:45 AM

Either way, if you would like a new sub-board or have a description for this board that you would like used, please let me know.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programmes...


It seems like most things here could be considered a tutorial.  Why scatter them into a sub-directory that is yet another click away?
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 24, 2009, 11:49:59 AM
It seems like most things here could be considered a tutorial.  Why scatter them into a sub-directory that is yet another click away?

Primarily because I was asked to create the board. Having now seen the kind of topics that are being moved into the new board, they do seem to be quite specific. As long as the criteria are kept fairly narrow, I don't see a problem - although I do appreciate your point. The extra 'click' is, in my experience, nothing to be concerned about and is far easier than trying to run a search across a whole board.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 24, 2009, 04:25:21 PM
It seems like most things here could be considered a tutorial.  Why scatter them into a sub-directory that is yet another click away?

Primarily because I was asked to create the board. Having now seen the kind of topics that are being moved into the new board, they do seem to be quite specific. As long as the criteria are kept fairly narrow, I don't see a problem - although I do appreciate your point. The extra 'click' is, in my experience, nothing to be concerned about and is far easier than trying to run a search across a whole board.


I'd wager that most people do a basic search encompassing all boards anyway.  It sounds like we're now going to have two of each forum section.  Hey, if two each is good, why not three or four, or eight?! ???  Ugh.

The thread-moving is getting out of control and monitoring another section is not very convenient for readers when they're all practical knotting.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 24, 2009, 05:27:15 PM

I hesitated to move that one as you said that it belonged in both Practical Knots and the new tutorial board. Unfortunately, I can't copy a topic so that it can be found in 2 boards at once, so I thought I'd better check before I moved it.


Don't move it.  If you want to point to a properly-placed thread, just link to it.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: skyout on February 25, 2009, 04:58:23 AM
Hey Mel,

Shhhhhh, don't tell Roo that the "survival bracelet" thread (with Stormdrane's great link) came from the Practical side of the house. He's already barking orders over the bottle thread,
Quote
Don't move it.
At least he didn't use a quotation mark! Just kidding Roo.  :)

I didn't mean to step on any toes, I just think covered bottles are beautiful, therefore would fit in nicely with the Fancy and Decorative Knots tutorial section Mel made for everyone. I'd almost be willing to bet most covered bottles nowadays are done not to be practical and to prevent them from being broken, but to show the skill of the tyer and the beauty of the art.

I, as well as other members, had posted in a Fancy and Decorative thread in favor of it when Lindsey requested input on a new section for tutorials. Personally I believe the moves Mel made are an asset to the site and will make things easier, better and much more organized for anyone looking for a tutorial, at least for a decorative knot.

Anyway, Mel,

I was wondering if it is possible to add something, say in parentheses, to a title of a thread. The thread, Identify and instructions?, is about "Rose Knots", which Vince did not know when he started the thread. Would you be able to add "(Rose Knots)" to the title? Also,the thread, Knot tying Instruction, is about "Turk's Head Knots". Would you be able to add "(Turk's Head Knots)" here as well? These two titles are clearly lacking what they are about and need your help to make it easier for anyone perusing the new tutorial section.

 Identify and instructions?
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1134.0  (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1134.0)

Knot tying Instruction
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1013.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1013.0)

Thanks again for all you're doing for us Mel.

Rick
skyout

Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 25, 2009, 12:18:03 PM
Sorted. I simply modified the subject headings on the first post in each thread.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 25, 2009, 04:18:37 PM
Hey Mel,

Shhhhhh, don't tell Roo that the "survival bracelet" thread (with Stormdrane's great link) came from the Practical side of the house. He's already barking orders over the bottle thread,
Quote
Don't move it.
At least he didn't use a quotation mark! Just kidding Roo.  :)


Skyout,

I don't know what you are talking about.  Shhh?  Huh?  Nor did I say a word about a bottle thread.

When I saw something about "tutorials" I thought a section of actual, separate tutorials were going to be added to the website.  I didn't expect threads to start disappearing from their proper forum as soon as they started to contain enough instructional content! ::)

Who did?

I guess if I don't want a thread to disappear from its place now, I should put in bold letters at the end of my post:  "THIS IS NOT A TUTORIAL".   >:(
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 25, 2009, 07:53:05 PM
Re thread-moving getting out of control,
I think its momentum is good  if we can direct it into the Chit-Chat
archives, to do the sort of culling of topic-specific threads that will
be better used if stored under the newer few (essentially 2, now
2 & a half) sub-forums, Decorative & Practical.
Such a redistribution of old Chit-Chat threads enriches the
respective Dec/Prac forums.

And is it correct (my understanding) that we are losing old threads
"off the back end" as each new thread grows?  We might better
go back in time and point to many threads worth losing first,
and somehow preserve better ones.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 25, 2009, 09:39:26 PM
And is it correct (my understanding) that we are losing old threads
"off the back end" as each new thread grows?

No older threads should be lost. The forum still has plenty of room and, barring accidents, threads can only be deleted manually - either individually or en masse as part of a 'prune everything older than X days' command. To the best of my knowledge, there are no plans to carry out any pruning exercise.

The only minor user issue is that, as the topic archive grows, it can become harder to locate threads on specific subjects - which is why the occasional re-organisation is sometimes helpful.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 25, 2009, 09:45:02 PM
When I saw something about "tutorials" I thought a section of actual, separate tutorials were going to be added to the website.

An expansion of the Beginners tutorial section on the web site would be great but, in the 7(?) years that I've been looking after the site, I don't think we've had a single new tutorial submission. Placing content on a web site proper requires the author(s) permission first. Posting a link in a forum doesn't. Perhaps that's the difference?
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 25, 2009, 09:48:56 PM
The only minor user issue is that, as the topic archive grows, it can become harder to locate threads on specific subjects - which is why the occasional re-organisation is sometimes helpful.

Can you explain why you don't just hyperlink to threads of "tutorial interest" instead of uprooting and moving them?

The advantages of linking are:

1. The thread is not disrupted.
2. Skyout still has a list of tutorials.
3. A directory of posts containing links only are still searchable by title.
4. Readers don't have to monitor another area.
5. You can link to several threads about the same topic in one post.
6. Everyone is happy, presumably.

The advantages of uprooting threads are:

1.  uh.... ummmmmm......

Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 25, 2009, 10:56:34 PM
Can you explain why you don't just hyperlink to threads of "tutorial interest" instead of uprooting and moving them?

A board with single post topics - each containing a link to another thread - probably wouldn't work very effectively or be as welcomed by readers. Whilst that approach can work well on a web site (e.g the list of photo albums on the main site), it is not common or accepted practice in a forum except in situations where someone simply refers to a previous thread/post rather than regurgitate the same answer again and again.

I fully appreciate that a forum is for its posters but it also has to be for its non-posting readers. Those who are new to knotting will often arrive at this forum looking for instructions or help. A board entitled Tutorials will attract their attention almost immediately and will, hopefully, provide them with the information they were looking for. Once they have that, perhaps they will stay or re-visit and become posters themselves or even join the Guild. Attracting a high level of new readers goes a long way towards bringing in new blood - something that every forum needs if it is to stay alive.

I've just noticed that 2 new tutorials have been posted on the new board - 1 today and the other 2 days ago. They comprise only 7 posts between them but have already been viewed over 500 times. I think, from a reading and promotional perspective, that board could prove to be very popular.

Quote
The advantages of linking are:

1. The thread is not disrupted.

There should now be minimal thread disruption on other boards. As always, the worst was during the setting-up period. Now that there's a good foundation in there, people will hopefully feel more comfortable about posting their own tutorials in there.

Quote
2. Skyout still has a list of tutorials.

This wasn't carried out for any one poster but for the unseen readers - present and future - who comer here looking for answers. Obviously a tutorial board won't help everyone but it is likely to be one of the most common reasons for new people to come here in the first place. Giving them the opportunity to find what they want quickly and effectively is all part of promoting both this forum and the Guild.

Quote
3. A directory of posts containing links only are still searchable by title.

Applying that to a web site, should a home page merely be a list of links to all the other pages on the site along with a search box? I don't think such a site would be popular and I doubt you would either. Sometimes it has to be about how you present information - not just just about making sure it's in there somewhere.

Quote
4. Readers don't have to monitor another area.

Again the logical follow on is that all forums should have only a single board. For a while, this forum did. Then it grew and there was a need for a 2nd board, and a 3rd etc. This is quite normal and natural.

There is also a inbuilt facility that can help board monitoring. If you look within the Forum Stats panel on the front page of the forum, you should see a link entitled "View the most recent posts on the forum." Following that link should give you a display of all the posts across all boards that were posted since your last visit.

Quote
5. You can link to several threads about the same topic in one post.

Again not terribly user friendly. Remember that not everyone who comes here will be as IT proficient as you are. Many don't even know how to use the Back button in their browser, so following a link from 1 post to another can leave them stranded. In comparison, a board of tutorials means that they stay in roughly the same place and can jump back to the board index very easily and quickly using the  tree-menu at the top of the page.

The only time I'd suggest having a single post containing links to many other posts is if it was a Frequently Asked Questions post that was:


Personally, I don't think that tutorials and FAQS are the same thing at all.

Quote
6. Everyone is happy, presumably.

See above. I don't think that the approach you are suggesting would work as well - especially in terms of attracting new posters/readers or from a promotional/educational perspective.

Quote
The advantages of uprooting threads are:
1.  uh.... ummmmmm......

Certain related topics are easier to find - by everyone.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 25, 2009, 11:22:06 PM
A board with single post topics - each containing a link to another thread - probably wouldn't work very effectively or be as welcomed by readers. Whilst that approach can work well on a web site (e.g the list of photo albums on the main site), it is not common or accepted practice in a forum except in situations where someone simply refers to a previous thread/post rather than regurgitate the same answer again and again.
Neither is it accepted practice to move threads for the sole reason that they have instructional benefit.  I'm trying to strike a compromise.

Quote
I fully appreciate that a forum is for its posters but it also has to be for its non-posting readers. Those who are new to knotting will often arrive at this forum looking for instructions or help. A board entitled Tutorials will attract their attention almost immediately and will, hopefully, provide them with the information they were looking for.
I would think a simple search or asking a question in the appropriate category would be more effective and more likely.

Quote
There should now be minimal thread disruption on other boards. As always, the worst was during the setting-up period. Now that there's a good foundation in there, people will hopefully feel more comfortable about posting their own tutorials in there.
Does that mean that you'll no longer uproot properly-categorized threads soley because they passed a threshhold of instructive content?  If not, the disruption continues.

Quote
Applying that to a web site, should a home page merely be a list of links to all the other pages on the site along with a search box? .
That's exactly how a web page operates and how this forum operates.  Very little content is shown without clicking on something.

Quote
Again the logical follow on is that all forums should have only a single board.
No, the logical follow is that one category should have one board, without duplicates.  You are essentially proposing having boards of:

1. Instructions on Practical Knots
2. Practical Knots, but instruction is prohibited.

It's a horrible, unnecessary, and unnatural division.  Instruction almost inevitably comes up.

Quote
There is also a inbuilt facility that can help board monitoring. If you look within the Forum Stats panel on the front page of the forum, you should see a link entitled "View the most recent posts on the forum." Following that link should give you a display of all the posts across all boards that were posted since your last visit.
That's just it.  Many readers aren't interested in all boards or all postings. 

Quote
Remember that not everyone who comes here will be as IT proficient as you are. Many don't even know how to use the Back button in their browser, so following a link from 1 post to another can leave them stranded. In comparison, a board of tutorials means that they stay in roughly the same place and can jump back to the board index very easily and quickly using the  tree-menu at the top of the page.
People don't know how to use a "back" button, but they know to look for a forum tree?  OoooKaaaaay.

Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 26, 2009, 05:34:45 AM
I've just noticed that 2 new tutorials have been posted on the new board - 1 today and the other 2 days ago.

If the Decorative folks like the split, that's fine w/me.  But I see no good reason to make a parallel
one under Practical.  I also see one recently MOVED on "thread Identify and instructions? (Rose Knots)"
which began hardly as a tutorial and arguably remains not quite that, but I guess got sufficient
instructional posting that it was felt it fit; perhaps in the future, where respondents feel that they
can answer such a post with instructions meriting the sub-forum, they'll continue their response
appropriately ("See my new thread 'How to make ...' in Tutorials"), and there won't be the not
so attractive "MOVED: ..." mark.  (At this time, with so many MOVEDs on the page, one might
wonder if the page forum was simply mis-titled entirely!)

(-;
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: skyout on February 26, 2009, 07:51:25 AM
Hey Mel,

Shhhhhh, don't tell Roo that the "survival bracelet" thread (with Stormdrane's great link) came from the Practical side of the house. He's already barking orders over the bottle thread,
Quote
Don't move it.
At least he didn't use a quotation mark! Just kidding Roo.  :)


Skyout,

I don't know what you are talking about.  Shhh?  Huh?  Nor did I say a word about a bottle thread.

When I saw something about "tutorials" I thought a section of actual, separate tutorials were going to be added to the website.  I didn't expect threads to start disappearing from their proper forum as soon as they started to contain enough instructional content! ::)

Who did?

I guess if I don't want a thread to disappear from its place now, I should put in bold letters at the end of my post:  "THIS IS NOT A TUTORIAL".   >:(

Well, Roo, when you quoted Mel, I remembered the part you cut out of the quote where she specifically mentioned bottles:
Quote
I've moved all of the topics you listed to the Fancy Knotwork Tutorials board with the exception of "Netting for Glass Bottles":

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1076.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1076.0)

I hesitated to move that one as you said that it belonged in both Practical Knots and the new tutorial board. Unfortunately, I can't copy a topic so that it can be found in 2 boards at once, so I thought I'd better check before I moved it.
so what other thread you were talking about when you commandingly said:
Quote
Don't move it.
Mel has been extremely helpful and polite and doesn't deserve this kind of attitude. You are not her boss. It is a public forum, it's not your thread and you didn't even make a post in it. So you'd probably get a lot further letting her know your opinion rather than trying to boss her around. JMHO I don't know you, where you're from or anything about you other than how you portray yourself here on the forum, but this is how I feel.

As far as the "Shhhhhh", that was my attempt at humor while owning up to asking her to move the thread where I forgot to mention it came from the practical forum. Sorry, I shouldn't have been making fun of you.

Mel made this tut section on the home page after enough members were in favor of it and has been kind enough to extend the same courtesy to the Practical section by asking for responses from the members. As far as I can see no one wants one for the Practical side, all 2 of you that responded. Why do you have to give her such a hard time on this issue that has already taken effect for the members that requested it for Fancy knots? You obviously didn't voice an opinion about a Fancy tut section before when it was discussed but you have been going on and on and on for 2 pages about it now. She just asked:
Quote
If people wish to post short practical knot tutorials, or links to tutorials, would a similar sub-board help?   
She is not going to make it unless the members want it, if my understanding of the English language is correct. She didn't say, OK, the Decorative boys got one, now the Practical guys are going to get it, too. She asked politely and as a courtesy and you just keep on and on about why it's no good. Enough of the members have said it is good and they would like it for Fancy knots, so she graciously provided one. Good for her! And if no members request one for the Practical side, good for you. Believe me, you can be sure she knows you don't want one. LOL The Fancy tutorials are here and hopefully will continue to grow. I'm really sorry you don't feel the same way but that's OK as it's alright to have different opinions.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: skyout on February 26, 2009, 08:21:45 AM
I also see one recently MOVED on "thread Identify and instructions? (Rose Knots)"
which began hardly as a tutorial and arguably remains not quite that, ...
Fixed

(At this time, with so many MOVEDs on the page, one might
wonder if the page forum was simply mis-titled entirely!)
OK, you guys are just looking for things to complain about now. We have 1030 Topics to date and only 13 tutorial topics were "moved" to the new tut section. If a new member opens just one of them, they'll be able to figure out what went on. What else have you got???

Mel,

Could you kindly make it 14 by including this one from the Chit Chat section?

Chest Beckets
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=965.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=965.0)


Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Sweeney on February 26, 2009, 09:24:56 AM
I have been reading this but up until now I haven't been bothered about where the tutorials went - and then it struck me that there actually aren't any (OK if there is one I apologise for missing it). What is on the forum is discussions about tuts and links to sites with tuts. I don't have a problem with that but it makes sense to me to put the title and link in a Tutorials section of the main website - with perhaps a brief description (rename 'Beginners' perhaps because people with years of experience can always find something new). If I were looking for help that's the first place I would go. The discussion and link remains as is on the Forum of course.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 26, 2009, 03:56:58 PM

Well, Roo, when you quoted Mel, I remembered the part you cut out of the quote where she specifically mentioned bottles:
  I didn't say a thing about bottles, however.  I made my comments to apply to all threads. 


Quote
so what other thread you were talking about when you commandingly said:
Don't move it.
You wrongly assumed what my tone of voice was and what my attitude was.  You can apologize for all the "attitude" I got from you about the "not her boss" crap.   >:(

Quote
Mel made this tut section on the home page after enough members were in favor of it and has been kind enough to extend the same courtesy to the Practical section by asking for responses from the members. As far as I can see no one wants one for the Practical side, all 2 of you that responded. Why do you have to give her such a hard time on this issue that has already taken effect for the members that requested it for Fancy knots? You obviously didn't voice an opinion about a Fancy tut section before when it was discussed but you have been going on and on and on for 2 pages about it now. She just asked:
If people wish to post short practical knot tutorials, or links to tutorials, would a similar sub-board help?   
She is not going to make it unless the members want it, if my understanding of the English language is correct. She didn't say, OK, the Decorative boys got one, now the Practical guys are going to get it, too. She asked politely and as a courtesy and you just keep on and on about why it's no good. Enough of the members have said it is good and they would like it for Fancy knots, so she graciously provided one. Good for her! And if no members request one for the Practical side, good for you. Believe me, you can be sure she knows you don't want one. LOL The Fancy tutorials are here and hopefully will continue to grow. I'm really sorry you don't feel the same way but that's OK as it's alright to have different opinions.

It seems that a very small group of users in the neglected "Feedback" forum decided to have a Tutorial section without much discussion at all of how it would actually work.  Then Decorative Knots gets vandalized with "MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED", and then it sounds like Mel wants to do the same here.  So I'll give my opinion.   Maybe if the forum gets an upgrade, you can choose to "Ignore User" me if you don't want to hear my opinion.  I'm still not convinced that thread confiscation won't occur here.  The Survival Bracelet thread was already moved, but that may or may not have been because Mel thought it was too decorative-oriented, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

I wish more specifics were revealed publicly and asking around done ahead of time.  It could have avoided a lot of irritation.  This is a slow forum, and some users don't visit for days at a time, and many only visit one board.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: admin on February 26, 2009, 05:09:21 PM
Then Decorative Knots gets vandalized with "MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED",

I was looking at those 'Moved' notices last night and wondering whether it would be better to get rid of them. Normally, it's considered polite to leave behind a note when moving a topic but I can see how it could be extremely annoying when a number of threads have been moved.

Would people like me to remove those notices?

In future, should a 'Moved' notice be left behind or not? It is a simple option that can be set to 'Yes' or 'No' during each move, so if people could decide what they would prefer, I'll do my best to abide by that.

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and then it sounds like Mel wants to do the same here.

Not 'wanted'. Merely asked because I thought it was only polite to offer the same option here also.

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The Survival Bracelet thread was already moved, but that may or may not have been because Mel thought it was too decorative-oriented, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

I'm in no position to decide what is decorative and what isn't. You're the knot experts - not me. I was simply asked to move it and did so.

Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 27, 2009, 03:53:54 PM
In future, should a 'Moved' notice be left behind or not? It is a simple option that can be set to 'Yes' or 'No' during each move, so if people could decide what they would prefer, I'll do my best to abide by that.

Since my linking-to-threads compromise has recieved resistance from you, how about this:  Instead of uprooting properly-placed threads, have people roll up their sleeves and compile and distill pertinent information into a new post. 

Yes, it takes a little effort, but it is the polite and respectful alternative to confiscating properly-placed threads.

P.S.  This is not an endorsement of the Tutorial Board idea.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 27, 2009, 06:15:06 PM
Then Decorative Knots gets vandalized with "MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED MOVED",

I was looking at those 'Moved' notices last night and wondering whether it would be better to get rid of them.
Normally, it's considered polite to leave behind a note when moving a topic

Although sometimes this might coincide w/movement from the page by virtue
of new posts occupying that space, I think you might have a compromise:
the MOVED indeed is an alert/reminder, but after a few days(?) no one should
need continued reminding, and the MOVED entry can be REmoved.  Does
that work?  (Only a quite occasional reader would then have the confusion
of looking in vain for a remembered but moved thread.)

If my goal of constituting the individual forums with old threads from Chit-Chat,
I'd say that there is no point at all to leave a MOVED note--how many folks are
looking back several pages at threads?  --few to none, I'll surmise.
The benefit to such retroactive reclassification/moving is that the wealth
of past discussions will fall under appropriate headings and be more
likely to be found; Search isn't all so helpful at finding things, sometimes.
And someone might just want to browse and see what's there, but ONLY
for Practical topics (or only for Decorative ones).

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OK, you guys are just looking for things to complain about now.
Hey, I came in late & rather neutrally on this, hardly complaining.


 ;)
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: SS369 on February 27, 2009, 09:53:06 PM
Hello All,

I am a bit confused as to why there would be any resistance to a Tutorial Board.

If indeed one of the ideals of the IGKT is to promote knotting, then it makes absolute sense that the best knotting minds make the best tutorials available to whomever comes seeking them here.

Of course this may curtail monetary pursuits a bit if there knot book authors out there.

SS

Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on February 27, 2009, 10:00:43 PM
Hello All,

I am a bit confused as to why there would be any resistance to a Tutorial Board.


So I guess you haven't read any of this thread at all.   ???

Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: squarerigger on March 02, 2009, 04:09:33 AM
Hi SS,

Really, there is no objection to the creation or the existence of a Board or sub-Board.  The only reaction really seems to be from posters not wanting to have things moved to such a board or sub-board because that means someone has to make an extra click - maybe even two!  The effort (of one or two clicks) is certainly far more than multiple postings to the Board here and saying that what has been done should not have been done....

Many posters seem to favor the idea of a Board or sub-Board, unless I am reading things incorrectly, and democracy includes majority rule after a proper inclusive discussion from a variety of viewpoints, so that individual posters can make up their mind about the pros and cons offered by way of argumentation.  C'est la vie!  I am all in favor of a separate sub-Board! ;D

SR
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: SS369 on March 02, 2009, 01:25:50 PM
As to your comment Roo, I have read this and it is confusing, to Me!
Perhaps you are following it better and can see it so much better from on high.

"So I guess you haven't read any of this thread at all.   Huh" <<< this does not help a bit, thank you very much.

Thank you SR, for an attempt to explain. I did follow from the beginning the desire of some to halt all movement, link instead, or generally do nothing to what already was in place.
It just felt like a stonewall  to having tutorials. My humble opinion.

Have a nice day wherever you are.

SS
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: roo on March 02, 2009, 05:40:54 PM
Hi SS,

Really, there is no objection to the creation or the existence of a Board or sub-Board.  The only reaction really seems to be from posters not wanting to have things moved to such a board or sub-board because that means someone has to make an extra click - maybe even two! 

SS369 & Squarerigger,

At the risk of  rehashing a lot of what's been gone over, I'll attempt to give you some points for consideration so that you don't create an inconsiderate board of unintended consequences.


1.  Rudeness & Irritation:  Imagine if you are reading a newspaper or a book, and someone snatches it away because they "need" it.  No, they didn't lend it to you, and you were doing nothing wrong.  Now imagine that happens over and over.  Could that get more than a little irritating?  Infuriating even?

So, when properly-placed threads are stolen from boards, people are likely to get irritated, be less likely to contribute and even leave.  This is extremely counterproductive to the board being a learning environment.


2.  Disruption:  When a thread is moved, it often kills it.  One of many possible reasons for this is that many of the original participants don't see it anymore.  The regulars of the other board suddenly see an already-established thread, and are less likely to add to it.  It almost has the feeling of being old to them, and that they've missed the boat.

Therefore this too inhibits instruction.

Also, when a thread disappears, any responses (helpful, in need of correction, or otherwise) in the new board are more likely to be missed by the original poster and participants in the coming days, weeks, and months.  They were implicitly expecting new responses to rise to the top of their favorite board.  Not only is this counterproductive, it is also irritating, and thus inhibits participation. 


I've offered two compromises in this thread.  If you two want to show that you're reading and seriously considering the other point of view, then offer your evaluation of both of those compromises.  If I don't hear anything from you, I'll just assume that you're skimming this thread and are only interested in inconsiderately pushing a pet project without pondering the unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 04, 2009, 08:25:44 AM
Really, there is no objection to the creation or the existence of a Board or sub-Board.

A "sub"-board exists under the Decorative knotting forum, and those who are
active in the original forum seem to generally favor this division.  However,
I see no similar need for such a division for Practical knots:  we don't have
quite the same sort of discussions as decorative-knotting tutorials, and what
might be seen to roughly constitute such a post probably will bring enough
comment about various aspects to merit general interest beyond that of those
needing the instruction.  So, as I don't find any need or anyone positing a
need for such a sub-forum for Practical Knots, let's not "fix" this side of
things with it.  Fair enough?

 ;)
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Sweeney on March 04, 2009, 08:29:54 AM
I am in favour of not fixing what ain't broke.  If anyone thinks a sub board would the right place to start a thread (not move things into it) then let them make the case at the time.

Barry
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: SS369 on March 04, 2009, 01:04:29 PM
Speaking for myself only, I have been reading along from the beginning and while not being the erudite knot expert with years and years of experience here, but just a bottom dwelling forum member, I did add my opinion, not necessarily a solution or contradiction, by asking a question.
"I am a bit confused as to why there would be any resistance to a Tutorial Board." Sorry that I neglected to put the ? on the end, my bad.
Another question:

This thread is named what?

And I gleaned the purpose was to get opinions.

I am of the simple but desirous opinion that tutorials are a good thing in all the boards if in fact the forum/Guild wants knotting to be a craft that is passed along to the future generations.

That's it, simple.

Thank you to all the sharing experts.

SS
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 04, 2009, 01:32:31 PM
How about leaving stuff where it is to satisfy that camp, and have a table of tutorial lynx to satisfy that camp/strategy?
Title: Re: Board description and possible tutorial sub-board?
Post by: Sweeney on March 04, 2009, 02:58:55 PM
That's what I meant in Reply #26.  I assume we can put links on the main website as long as we don't display the content actually on our site?

Barry