International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: alpineer on January 20, 2009, 06:44:06 AM

Title: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
Post by: alpineer on January 20, 2009, 06:44:06 AM
A few years ago I discovered a new and a more practical way to tie the Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot.

The original worded description of the tying process has been edited to hopefully allow for easier understanding:

Right-handers version,
1) Wrap the line around your left hand in the clockwise direction until the Working Part passes over the Standing Part two times, forming a Loop on the hand with an "X" shaped Crossing Part underneath. 2) Position your Working Hand between the two crossed lines and draw the Loop down and under the Crossing Part to the other side of the crossed lines. Step 2 lets you easily adjust the size of the Loop, which becomes the "Eye" of the knot. 3) Pass the end of the Loop through the "hole" above Crossing Part to complete the tying process. 4) Dress and set the knot.

I call this way of tying the Alpine Butterfly Knot the "Hybrid" Method, with reference to each of the key component forms used in the traditional ABK tying methods, i.e. the Loop and the "X" Crossing.

The Hybrid Method offers features of particular value to mountaineers:
>ergonomic efficiency (each step in the tying process flows easily and smoothly into the next)
>easy eyeloop sizing
>speed of tying (less than 5 sec.)
>the knot can be tied with gloves or mitts on
>the knot can be tied in the dark with ease and confidence
>easy to dress the knot and give a neat appearance
>easy to learn and remember

The Hybrid Method also makes it easy to tie the Double Loop and Triple Loop versions of the Alpine Butterfly Knot.
   
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: DerekSmith on January 20, 2009, 05:19:42 PM
Hi Alpineer,

Sounds good, but sorry, you lost me.

Would you mind explaining the moves in more detail, words are a very poor medium for this sort of thing.

Derek
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on January 20, 2009, 06:32:26 PM
Hi Derek,

You are so right that words alone are a poor medium for figuring out how to tie knots. I hope soon to post a link with photos or video that will make it easier to learn this method.

In the meantime:
The more well known methods of tying the Alpine Butterfly involve either wrapping a rope or cord around your hand to form two Loops, or twisting a Bight to form two "X" shaped Crossing Parts. In the case of the "Hybrid Method" you wrap the line around your hand to make one Loop AND one "X" shaped Crossing. Now you have a Roundturn on your hand with an "X" Crossing underneath. Note that the Loop and the "X" Crossing must be of the same handedness. From between the two crossed lines under the Crossing Part is where you reach up and grab the loop of the Roundturn. Pull the Loop down to form a Bight and take it through the hanging lines. Then feed the Bight through the hole bounded by the top of the Roundturn and the crossed lines. Tighten the knot and you have now formed the Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot.
Once you get it, it's like riding a bicycle. You'll never forget how to do it.

Hope this helps Derek. Good luck and please let me know how you make out. I would greatly appreciate any comments you may have.

 
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Butterfly Loop
Post by: roo on January 20, 2009, 07:00:16 PM
I think I was able to make it work, but I don't know if it was the way you intended.  I'm not sure it was easier or more memorable than either of the two methods of tying shown here:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: DerekSmith on January 20, 2009, 07:55:27 PM
GOT IT,

I looked for how bringing the first line forwards (in the two loops method) made the crossing you spoke of, then I rotated this around my hand to see how it worked on the heel of my palm.

At first I found it a little clumsy, I preferred the ability (in the two loops method) to hook the loop through with my thumb, but then as I tried pulling out a larger loop, I moved into handing the loop into my hand instead of just hooking it with my thumb, then suddenly the whole method flows like a dream, especially the ability to pull out to any size loop you want which is no where as easy or tidy with the two loop method.

I'm hooked, and will happily teach this method in future, now we need a video of how to do it.  Any takers?

Thank you alpineer for bringing it to us.  It reminds me that it is just as important (if not more so) to have as good a library of methods as we would build of knots.

Derek
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Butterfly Loop
Post by: roo on January 20, 2009, 10:54:07 PM
I think I was able to make it work, but I don't know if it was the way you intended.  I'm not sure it was easier or more memorable than either of the two methods of tying shown here:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/butterflyloop.html

On second thought, maybe I don't have it.  Let's be careful here, everyone.  I keep getting a false look-alike version of a Butterfly Loop or Lineman's loop that is discussed in this thread (half-hitch loop):

http://tinyurl.com/7qofgw

Unfortunately, the .pdf link of interest is defunct.

Update: found the new .pdf link, (knot #18):
http://www.cs-caving-association.com/CSCA%20Publications/Knots%20A5.pdf

Other discussion of interest:  http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1892.0
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on January 21, 2009, 04:04:42 AM
Roo,

There are two possible ways of crossing, or twisting, the the two lines hanging from your non-working (drone) hand. When you cross them the wrong way you get the false look-alike version. Fortunately, the correct way just feels right once you have tried both ways. In fact, I suggest that one should try both ways to experience the difference between the two ways.

Keep trying and you will get it right.
   
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on January 21, 2009, 06:39:17 AM
Hi Derek,

Glad you GOT IT and thank you for comments. They are appreciated.

I have uploaded a sequential photo set on Flickr. My username in the "People" search field is ursusgummis. The set is entitled "A Better Way To Tie The Alpine Butterfly".

Cheers
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: roo on January 21, 2009, 07:33:24 AM

I have uploaded a sequential photo set on Flickr. My username in the "People" search field is ursusgummis. The set is entitled "A Better Way To Tie The Alpine Butterfly".

Thank you for the images.  That clarifies things.  I'm sure you find the method easy for you, otherwise you wouldn't do it.  However, if I were to study the method of tying for some time, I still think that I'd be likely to forget it even after a week.
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on January 21, 2009, 08:42:42 AM
Thanks for your input Roo.
Just for fun, imagine if you were on a glacier at night in a blinding snow storm with a pair of boxing gloves on your hands and desperately needed to tie into the middle of your rope with an alpine butterfly ;D. It can actually be done using the "Flying Method". 
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: DerekSmith on January 21, 2009, 09:36:54 AM

I have uploaded a sequential photo set on Flickr. My username in the "People" search field is ursusgummis. The set is entitled "A Better Way To Tie The Alpine Butterfly".

Thank you for the images.  That clarifies things.  I'm sure you find the method easy for you, otherwise you wouldn't do it.  However, if I were to study the method of tying for some time, I still think that I'd be likely to forget it even after a week.

Damn memory failure Roo, I think there is a medical term for it - but I just can't remember it right now, but give me a while, it might come to me.

Alpineer - you are clever spotting this method of tying, but "standing on a glacier, in a blizzard, in the dark, wearing boxing gloves, and you need to tie into your rope  !!!    Clever, but utterly mad.

Welcome

Derek
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on January 21, 2009, 09:44:15 AM
That's me.
Thanks for the welcome Derek.
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 07, 2009, 09:36:49 PM
A few years ago I discovered a new and a more practical way of tying the Alpine Butterfly Loop:

In part to change the line-up of too-long-stable threads (as we wait in great eagerness
for more from Agent_Smith, Down Under !!), and as I've not responded to this thread,
let me say BRAVO!  This indeed seems a good easy significant step to making the
tying of this knot simple(r).  (Although, to some extent, the torque of what some
have called the "twirly flop" method leads to an orientation of the eye legs that
might have benefit.)  It is easy also to size the eye in this method on the initial
wrap.  --very clean, simple, which counts much, yes!

 :)
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on February 08, 2009, 09:51:10 AM
The premise for discovering this method of tying is this: putting a LOOP is the same as putting a TWIST in the rope. I realized then, if one of the wraps (in the "wraps on the hand method") was replaced with a twist (as in the other well known method), an Alpine Butterfly Knot could also be tied. A "HYBRID" Butterfly if you will. ::)

Soon, I discovered other variant methods, two of which make tying the "bend version" of the Alpine Butterfly (aka Strait Bend) particularly easy. And although these methods are not difficult to execute, they are rather difficult to convey in words alone. So I will soon (tomorrow) put a video on Youtube.
Quote
(Although, to some extent, the torque of what some
have called the "twirly flop" method leads to an orientation of the eye legs that
might have benefit.)

If I understand you correctly Dan, by "orientation of the eye legs" (whether the legs are oriented crossed or parallel to themselves), you can actually change the orientation through 360 deg. (180 deg. in either direction) by rotating the R. wrist as you pull the eye loop.
     

   
 
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on February 10, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
 
Update; I'm having car and computer problems.
The knot tying video has been down-prioritized until these issues are resolved. I will inform when it has been uploaded.

Apologies,
alpineer
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 10, 2009, 09:14:52 PM

 [ / q u o t e ]
(Although, to some extent, the torquer <<===  of what some
have called the "twirly flop" method leads to an orientation of the eye legs that
might have benefit.)

If I understand you correctly Dan, by "orientation of the eye legs"
(whether the legs are oriented crossed or parallel to themselves),
you can actually change the orientation through 360 deg. by rotating the wrist
in either direction when you pull the eye loop and let the rope run through the other hand.

Alpineer, you should EDIT your prior post to add in the '[/quote]' end to my words,
and, while you're at it, correct my typo in 'torquer'--which I just did in original.

I don't think that rotation is so free, but one can arrange the cross to be
with legs on either side, in addition to abutting.  This is likely going to
come with torsion, one way or the other; but given some method(s),
torsion leads the orientation to be just so--YMMV on circumstance.
As your method has the eye-bight just drawn up through the loops
from a presumably untorsioned free-hanging state, it will naturally
form the *abutted* version; in the "twirly-flop" method, the twisting
can build and induce a crossed-legs version (and maybe the only
reason Wright & Magowan specified that was in recognition of it
and a go-with-the-flow rationale vs. ending up with torsion in the
eye!?  How well, or whether, the legs will remain so crossed, if ...,
can hinge on the exact form and loading and thus whether the
S.Part draws to hold it vs. undo it.

--dl*
====

ps:  Good luck w/car & computer --I'm too well & recently familiar with such things.
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: DerekSmith on February 11, 2009, 01:59:26 PM
Twist is an important part of each knots structure and can be seen as part of a knots 'signature' - its essence, so to speak.

Torsion is the unresolved twist created by the tying process.

Alpineers method of winding around the hand, allows the required whole turn of twist to be resolved out into the 'working end' or if in line, the 'working line'.  The pull and fold does not induce any further twisting so the final knot is free from torsion.

Twirly flop, by contrast, tends to concentrate about a half turn of torsion into the final loop causing it to dress with a twist in response to this retained torsion.

I doubt we would ever be able to quantify the impact of these differences, but from a purist standpoint, the Alpineer method and the 'round the hand and cast off' method are preferable because they are less likely to leave any torsion within the knot.

Derek
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on February 13, 2009, 09:13:02 AM
[ / q u o t e ]
 

I don't think that rotation is so free, but one can arrange the cross to be
with legs on either side, in addition to abutting.  This is likely going to
come with torsion, one way or the other; but given some method(s),
torsion leads the orientation to be just so--YMMV on circumstance.
As your method has the eye-bight just drawn up through the loops
from a presumably untorsioned free-hanging state, it will naturally
form the *abutted* version; in the "twirly-flop" method, the twisting
can build and induce a crossed-legs version (and maybe the only
reason Wright & Magowan specified that was in recognition of it
and a go-with-the-flow rationale vs. ending up with torsion in the
eye!?  How well, or whether, the legs will remain so crossed, if ...,
can hinge on the exact form and loading and thus whether the
S.Part draws to hold it vs. undo it.

--dl*
====

ps:  Good luck w/car & computer --I'm too well & recently familiar with such things.


Yes, actually, rotation is free and easy up to 180 deg. in either direction, but only one direction at a time. When pulling the 'Roundturn' to form the 'Eye Bight', orientation of the 'working' hand determines the direction of "free rotation". So, the HYBRID METHOD is unique in that all three 'Eye' variants can be formed (with ease). Note that 'pulling and rotation' should be done simultaneously to achieve more consistent results.

Car issue is resolved. Computer still giving grief.
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on February 13, 2009, 09:32:40 AM
Twist is an important part of each knots structure and can be seen as part of a knots 'signature' - its essence, so to speak.

Torsion is the unresolved twist created by the tying process.

Alpineers method of winding around the hand, allows the required whole turn of twist to be resolved out into the 'working end' or if in line, the 'working line'.  The pull and fold does not induce any further twisting so the final knot is free from torsion.

Twirly flop, by contrast, tends to concentrate about a half turn of torsion into the final loop causing it to dress with a twist in response to this retained torsion.

I doubt we would ever be able to quantify the impact of these differences, but from a purist standpoint, the Alpineer method and the 'round the hand and cast off' method are preferable because they are less likely to leave any torsion within the knot.

Derek

Good analyzing Derek. I find it interesting (even exciting) that this method has such flexibility, being able to tie even the 'crossed legs' versions with a simple twist of the wrist in either direction as the Roundturn is pulled to form Eye Bight. It's a method ready for the future if anyone should be able to quantify the differences. 
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 13, 2009, 09:43:25 PM
Good analyzing Derek. I find it interesting (even exciting) that this method has such flexibility,
being able to tie even the 'crossed legs' versions with a simple twist of the wrist in either direction
as the Roundturn is pulled to form Eye Bight.

Hmmm, here's where I differ:  if you are twisting the round turn,
you put torsion into it, same as the other method--and that has
to go somewhere.  If one simply forms the initial wraps W/O the
natural twisting onto the had, the one connected wrap should
form a fig.8 from the torsion.

Some play with all these ways can shed light,
but I've fallen flat on my face from the edge of my seat anticipating
the next interesting installment from A_S Down Under!

 :)

ps:  Meanwhile, there is on-going pursuit of some of the origins of
the Lineman's Loop (aka "Butterfly" aka "Alpine B."):  CLDay cites
a 1914 (15?) work by Burger, and we might be able to get some
kind of copy of this.  [AKS, 4th , #81 p.80]  This precedes the
Wright & Magowan publication; Day cites Burger as reporting that
the knot was used by linemen, esp. telephone linemen; it would
be great to find some prior literature from their employer(s).
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on March 01, 2009, 11:52:41 PM
The Hybrid Method video is on Youtube now. Search Alpine Butterfly Knot and you will find it. There is no spoken instruction, but I wanted to get something up.

Alpineer

edit: see next post for direct link
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: alpineer on April 25, 2009, 05:17:46 PM
Here's the direct link to a more recent video (edit Jan.28/18).

alpineer

https://youtu.be/DYGdvL9-P30
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: ray on April 26, 2009, 11:08:42 AM
while fiddling around with this knot i worked out how to tie it with the end of the rope so you can tie the loop into e.g. a harness and also using this method, make it into a friction hitch for my work which is tree surgery.
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: Benboncan on September 08, 2010, 09:33:40 PM
alpineer,

Thank you for this method of tying the Alpine butterfly, it is easy,elegant and intuitive. Most of all I find it the easiest method to adjust the length of loop to suit.
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop
Post by: knot4u on September 09, 2010, 02:27:28 AM
Here's the direct link to the video.

Alpineer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4

That's the method I use.  I find this method naturally dresses the Butterfly how I like it.  Also, this method makes the knot size easily adjustable.  Also, 2 loops and 3 loops are fun and easy.  Just add turns around the hand during the initial part.
Title: Thumb Hook Method
Post by: Andy on December 06, 2012, 07:28:17 AM
Old thread, but maybe something new?

Alpineer, after searching the forum, I couldn't find that you had posted your video for your even more recent method of tying a butterfly, your "thumb hook" method, even faster than your "hybrid method". In my opinion this thumb hook method deserves a Nobel prize. Once you play with it, it flows much easier that the video would suggests, somewhat similarly to the twist-coil method of tying a constrictor that Derek introduced me to some years ago.
To get the hang of it, aside from the form shown on the video, I recommend trying with just the index finger (instead of the palm) and the thumb. This will also show how easily you can control the size of the loop.

Within a few minutes, I could tie it in seconds, without looking at the rope.
Magical!
Here's your video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qAENib1wuY

This video really caps the year for me as far as knots are concerned, I'm ready for 2013.
THUMBS UP

Apologies if this has already been discussed and somehow eluded my search efforts.

Btw the hook action somehow reminds me of the "Sofia method (http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_most-useful-knots.html#sofia-constrictor)" of tying a constrictor, which I was really proud of for the five minutes until Derek introduced me to the coil-twist. But that's the only similarity, I never use the Sofia method, while your thumb hook method is brilliant, I'll be using it all the time.
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
Post by: alanleeknots on February 29, 2020, 08:55:43 AM
Hi All, 
        Topic: Adjustable guy line. post by Olegan67.  link ; https://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=6610.0
        I found Mr. Creozin have a video, how to tie Alpine Butterfly Knot. exactly same tying method as The Hybride Tying Method by Alpineer.
        One was in the year 2012 the other was year 2015.
       
        See these limks;
        Австрийский проводник и бурлацкая петля.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbUUT0cpML8
        Alpine Butterfly Knot - The Hybrid Tying Method  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYGdvL9-P30
        謝謝 alanleeknots
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
Post by: Keystoner on February 29, 2020, 01:28:30 PM
Yes but Alan, no method is as efficient as yours where you hang the line from your hand, flick your wrist, and presto, the Alpine Butterfly is formed.  ;)
Title: Re: An Improved Method Of Tying The Alpine Butterfly Loop Knot
Post by: Gordias on May 05, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
Here's another variation. 

I found this when checking youtube to see if my variation on the "double twist" was new.
I like this method because it's easy to tie the knot without looking.   
I also use this to tie the butterfly bend, though it took a while to figure out how to make it work well for the bend.

Note - the interesting part of the video is from 3:05 to 3:35.   
FWIW I don't finish it exactly the same way - I pull the loop away from my body rather than across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72_xyeN8pnM

Another similar approach.  I won't be switching though - it doesn't look like I'd like to tie the bend that way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV39a-EjwB8