International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Standing Bear on October 09, 2008, 01:52:17 AM

Title: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Standing Bear on October 09, 2008, 01:52:17 AM
Hi everyone.  I teach knots to a large group of children ages 11-18.  They have a knot board of 25 knots they have to complete for their knot honor patch.  I realize most children won't remember 25 knots after they complete the board.  My question is if you had to distill your knot list to say 10 or 12 of the most essential "must have" knots what would they be?  Thanks for your input.

Standing Bear
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: squarerigger on October 09, 2008, 02:11:19 AM
Hi Standing Bear,

Many thanks for your question - let's see - what purpose would these knots be used to fulfill (apart from being on the knot board)?  Would they all have to be made in the same type of line?  Braided or laid?  Organic, wire or inorganic?  Would this include or exclude bends, hitches, loops, bindings, lashings, finishings, splices, decorative knots or any other particular classification of "knots"?  By your name and by the description you gave it appears that you may be preparing these young people for some kind of Scout testing - is there any guidance given there?   ???

There are, I feel, plenty of other questions but the above list should help to narrow things down a bit - it seems a little like the media folks asking someone who has devoted their life to a cause "What should be in the fifteen seconds in which you describe your life's work?" - I might need a moment to prepare an answer to that!   ;D

SR
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Sweeney on October 09, 2008, 09:42:02 AM
A good question Standing Bear! I understand what Squarerigger is saying and I am sure that 50 members have at least 51 opinions! Below is my personal list - the knots I hope I can still tie when my memory finally gives up. i've used all of these in the past couple of months but they might be all but useless if you have a particular interest eg climbing. The list is in no particular order and Ashley numbers are shown where the name might not be familiar (some are not in Ashley). I can already hear shouts  of "Wot, no bowline" or Clove Hitch - sorry folks I don't or very rarely use them esp in slippery synthetic rope. Oh, and can I take the reef knot as "the one everybody knows" and therefore have 12 without it? Otherwise it's a baker's dozen.

1.   Angler's (Perfection) Loop
2.   Zeppelin (Rosendahl) Bend (Hunter's Bend if not familiar with this)
3.   Eye Splice (in laid rope)
4.   Alpine Butterfly
5.   Icicle Hitch
6.   Fisherman's Knot doubled (Grinner Knot) especially as a noose fitted to a thimble (works well  in all types of line I have used)
7.   Ashley Stopper Knot
8.   Constrictor Knot
9.   Round Turn & 2 Half Hitches
10.   Two Strand Lanyard (Diamond) knot (Ashley #787) ? the only fancy knot but useful as well
11.   Timber Hitch (Ashley #195)
12.   Pile Hitch (Ashley  #1815)

And  these might be the ones I forget last!

Highwayman's  Hitch (Never for a lifeline it will be very dangerous! But good for hanging tools in the shed)
Crown Loops (Ashley #1097)
Carrick Bend (useful for knot 10. above as well as a nice bend in thick material)
Picket Line Hitch (Ashley #1676)

Barry
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on October 09, 2008, 01:13:06 PM
Every time a question like this comes up, I am reminded just how important it is to the future of the Guild to ensure that we take answering it with all seriousness, for the future of the Guild lays in taking every opportunity to effectively promote knotting and the use of rope and cord - especially to this age group.  So, before we go popping off posting our personal favourites, remember the task of the teacher who is going to be introducing the use of rope cord and knots to individuals, brought up in a world of cable ties, superglue, adhesive-tape and bungee-cords.

Apart from 'passing a test', why on earth should they swap the ease of using Gaffa tape (which works and which they will almost certainly have to hand) for cord and knots which are hard to remember, and when you get them wrong, fall apart!!

Perhaps we should start with Lindsey's first question "what purpose would these knots be used to fulfil" and work from there.

Pick a task (say wrapping a parcel) consider how it would be done today, then consider how it would be done with string and knots, then (most importantly) review the pros and cons of each method.  At the end of the exercise, the students have learnt a new knot, but they have also learnt it in context and have been given the opportunity to consider how cord (or perhaps in this case, ribbon) might have been better.

Tying up bean poles in the garden -- cable ties?  Gaffa tape? or a simple constrictor in hairy garden string?

Tying on a load -- Bungee cord?  ratchet straps?  (and yes, I have seen a load strapped on with Gaffa) or an Alpine loop and Z hitch?

Stabilising a Gazebo -- Bungee straps?  or Sliding Grip Hitch in 3mm braided polyester?

Fixing to a pole and don't want it to slip -- cable ties and Gaffa? or a KC Hitch using old bailer twine?

Temporary closure  --  Magnetic catch? or a Chinese button tied in elastic cord?

Which do you think would be a more valuable (and therefore memorable) challenge  --  'Bring me six examples of knots in use' or, 'Bring me a knotboard of ten knots'?

If someone brought me six effective uses for even the same knot, I would be more confident that they would be likely to use knots in their future than if someone brought me a pristine set of ten samples on a knotboard.

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on October 09, 2008, 01:59:19 PM
Hear here,

i am all for these things being passed on.  A fair point has been maid, but don't stop now...

Specific uses are good to know.  But, also a potential to L-earning too.  If there isn't a specific use in mind, perhaps making a cohesive one up; like a camping scenario, cook out.  A fun project, that the knots make more sense in actual use and one event reminds them of another, and another knot.  We need a noose here for snare or closure, but over hear the eye can't shrink so use bowline as standard.  See how the Bowline with fixed/non-shrinking eye would be wrong for something requiring noose, and vice versa.  Make a lil'written 4 category matching test, this needs a -noose- because it is a -shrinking eye-, my general purpose noose is a -dbl. noose- based on a(n) -anchor hitch- (a class f lacings which doesn't work as well in -fishline-) or something...  i all ways believe the individual threads of knowledge have more support as a woven fabric..

Also, pick groups of knots with similar lacing but different uses.  Learn Sheetbend for this purpose, make it to itself to form Bowline, that around it's self and you have a Running Bowline.  See, you just learn that SheetBend and you get credit and control for 3 knots and their uses, dbl. Bolwine helps introduce Round turns rather than Simple Turns as target base formations and non-lazy way out of life philosophies.  Much better payoff for effort of learning i think.  Any of you pups ever seen the quick way to make a Dragon Bowline? 

When you guys tie your shoes, do you tie a Dbl. Slipped Square(Sheet Bend with both legs unbent) or ol' Granny?  Tieing a Granny is without the purpose of a man crafting forces to his will, you ready to step up?

Or how you can get by sometimes with overhand, but same with a Round Turn is a much better Anchor, to self is a much better Noose.  Clove, Constrictor, Transom, Buntline, Tautline and perhaps one of the best (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1099.0), round Turn and 2 halfs again shows the better power of round turn.

Or you might throw a Pile in their, for shear simplicity and power.  The butterfly is unique and power full enough for a lesson of it's own too, especially for like a 3:1 too.  Learn timber, and when you'd make a Killick, and why; what changes to make you take that extra step?  There is one that thinx all ya need is an Adjustable Hitch (http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Hitches.htm#AdjustableGripHitch).

i think showing guys what pulleys can do is an eye catcher too.  Like (if you know of such things and gear), placing a line in tree, anchoring, and have a pulley hagingig off of it and have the 2 smallest pick up the largest groan up etc.  And giving it all texture to be bitten into with talks about men roving the oceans before gas and electricity, trusting their lives for 6 mos. or so to their grit, steel, ropes and wits to tame both wind and sea and allow them to be amongst the lucky that lived to tell about it.  This land without land is where 90% of our knots come from....

Tape, ties and hose clamps are great too, perhaps in sum weighs can be more appreciated and utilized after these lessons; especially if mechanics and purpose are shown.  So then it is easier to see where to slide in tape, hose clamps, ties etc. to suit same mechanics properly.  But, in moving mechanics of work, snares, load tiedowns with minimal or constructible, widest purpose resources, i think rope has it; and it's own lessons that it has whispered to many for millenniums.  That number of listeners will be much less, these things lost if not more purposefully lent.  That is why this is an important thread, to give a strategy of powerful, easy, lean knots for others to learn, especially kids.  The amount asked to coldly grok without purpose can be foreboding and seemingly senseless; turning many away.

These things control large powers with simple devices(rope/knot/pulley/friction/angle); every change in them literally carries a lot of weight.  A small change or inaccuracy, can totally change everything from ruler to disaster, fiend or foe.  That is why a man steps up and tames this animal to his bidding.   That is why i pass them to you; and invite ye to stand forward and be Master of this land...

i guess my target here is utility, enjoymeant, sense of purpose, cohesive with transitions etc. like the strength of rope itself; as well as the most bang for your L-eanring exepndicture/buck.  Perhaps a few sessions of intro and making different knots.  then a day of uses etc.

Good LUCK (Labour Under Controlled Knowledge)!
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on October 09, 2008, 04:52:10 PM
Hi everyone.  I teach knots to a large group of children ages 11-18.  They have a knot board of 25 knots they have to complete for their knot honor patch.  I realize most children won't remember 25 knots after they complete the board.  My question is if you had to distill your knot list to say 10 or 12 of the most essential "must have" knots what would they be?  Thanks for your input.

Standing Bear

It depends on the field of use, but I'll list a few.  I could easily change my mind on a number of them.  In no particular order:

Timber Hitch
Pile Hitch
Zeppelin Bend
Zeppelin Loop
Slipped Buntine Hitch
Butterfly Loop
Versatackle
Reef Knot
Constrictor Knot
Bowline
Sailor's Hitch
Midspan Sheet Bend

All can be found here:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: lcurious on October 09, 2008, 05:08:01 PM

Standing Bear, could you please list your boards  25 knot?  It would be interesting to see what you have and to have the members comment on whether they feel it covers all or most requirements
Thanks
Paul
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Sweeney on October 09, 2008, 06:47:20 PM
That's a good idea - as we don't know what's on the knot board we may well be suggesting that the pupils learn 25 knots and then have to learn 7 or 8 more which would surely make many lose interest.

Apart from 'passing a test', why on earth should they swap the ease of using Gaffa tape (which works and which they will almost certainly have to hand) for cord and knots which are hard to remember, and when you get them wrong, fall apart!!


Why indeed?  As one who regularly uses tape and cable ties (especially garden ones which are removable) I have to say that ease of use and reliabilty are paramount to most people who are not infected with the "knotters' virus". But what do you do when you cannot find a cable tie but you can find a piece of cord or string? That might be an approach to encourage learning - not tying knots for its own sake (unless infected!) but first and foremost learning a useful and practical skill because you cannot always lay hand on the easy solution - a knot might even be the easy solution. In which case whatever one chooses as a list (including options as some will always find one knot easier than another) there has to be a real world practicality. If a neighbour asked me how to attach their washing line I would help them with one - or at most 2 - options recognising that they want an answer not a discussion. But if only one person in 1,000 is or is destined to be an enthusiast (and there must be that many whose hobby or profession requires the use of rope and knots) then there are 50,000 potential members in the UK alone - our mission is far from complete!!
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on October 09, 2008, 06:52:58 PM
Fine list of knots Roo, but why would I show an 11 yo the Zepplin, or worse, how to tie the Zepplin loop?

Granted, it is a great knot, but it is an 'experts' knot, and very easy to forget and get wrong, whereas the Fisherman's, being just another wrap from the overhand to make the strangle is sooper easy to remember and almost ridiculously easy to turn into a good loop knot.  It holds well and behaves well when joining dissimilar materials - If I wanted my 11 yo student to learn a knot which they would be likely to need, use and remember then it would be the fishermans rather than the Zepplin.

Are these your personal favourite twelve knots Roo or are they really the dozen you would choose to teach to kids who probably have no prior exposure to using these tools?

I am a knotting anorak and happen to think that the Zepplin is a great knot, but 11yo kids are unlikely to be knotting fanatics, they have much more important things to occupy their minds, so to get a knot to 'stick' is going to be a challenge for us to choose correctly -- remember, they have to be useful and easy from the perspective of an 11yo, not from the perspective of a middle aged knotting nutter (AKA a 'granddad' to an 11yo).

Teaching six useful knots that these kids are going to remember and use into adulthood is going to be a real challenge, finding ways to teach their usefulness is going to be an even greater challenge because we don't have the minds of 11yo's anymore.

Perhaps we should consider starting in a different place -- get a bunch of kids, show them some knots and uses for them, then ask them to come up with their own uses for them and then ask the kids which knot(s) the like the most and why -- then we can teach that(those) knots to our new audiences.

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on October 09, 2008, 07:43:47 PM
Fine list of knots Roo, but why would I show an 11 yo the Zepplin, or worse, how to tie the Zepplin loop?

Granted, it is a great knot, but it is an 'experts' knot, and very easy to forget and get wrong, whereas the Fisherman's, being just another wrap from the overhand to make the strangle is sooper easy to remember and almost ridiculously easy to turn into a good loop knot.  It holds well and behaves well when joining dissimilar materials - If I wanted my 11 yo student to learn a knot which they would be likely to need, use and remember then it would be the fishermans rather than the Zepplin.

Are these your personal favourite twelve knots Roo or are they really the dozen you would choose to teach to kids who probably have no prior exposure to using these tools?

I am a knotting anorak and happen to think that the Zepplin is a great knot, but 11yo kids are unlikely to be knotting fanatics, they have much more important things to occupy their minds, so to get a knot to 'stick' is going to be a challenge for us to choose correctly -- remember, they have to be useful and easy from the perspective of an 11yo, not from the perspective of a middle aged knotting nutter (AKA a 'granddad' to an 11yo).

Teaching six useful knots that these kids are going to remember and use into adulthood is going to be a real challenge, finding ways to teach their usefulness is going to be an even greater challenge because we don't have the minds of 11yo's anymore.

Perhaps we should consider starting in a different place -- get a bunch of kids, show them some knots and uses for them, then ask them to come up with their own uses for them and then ask the kids which knot(s) the like the most and why -- then we can teach that(those) knots to our new audiences.

Derek


Kids are better at learning new things than adults.  If we all grew up learning the Zeppelin, we'd all see how symmetric and easy it is to tie and remember  (unless you tie it one of the weird "alternative" ways).  If you can remember b & q, you have it.  Mmm.  Barbeque. :D  http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Zeppelin.html

I personally know someone who is horrible at remembering knots, but has no trouble with the Zeppelin Bend.  The loop is just a bit more difficult.  It's mainly just retracing two parts of an overhand knot.
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html

Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 09, 2008, 09:02:14 PM
They have a knot board of 25 knots they have to complete for their knot honor patch.  I realize most children won't remember 25 knots after they complete the board.  My question is if you had to distill your knot list to say 10 or 12 of the most essential "must have" knots what would they be?
I second the request to know what these 25 knots on the board are.

With 25 to work with, we might find a set that makes the learning easier
and somewhat profound--by which I mean that some relations between
knots, and some knot types & knot mechanics might be highlighted.

----------

Thinking of a basic ten, hmmmmm:

1. Overhand knot (stopper that can be set snug to something, and a simple foundation knot (and a bag tie-off knot!))
B. Fisherman's Knot (putting opposed #1s to work to join ropes)
III. Overhand eyeknot (seeing what happens in doing #1 in "doubled" rope; most common end & mid-line eyeknot?)
4. Half-hitch (sort of short-handed by itself, but useful in series & with #1 to secure it)
E. Bowline w/securing tail-wrap (a venerable and quite useful eyeknot, post-eye-tiable, and easily untied)
VI. Clove Hitch (which is getting #4 to gang up in a particular way; do we count "Two HH.s" as a Clove Noose?!)
7. Common Whipping (a worthwhile technique to have in mind--it can be used to finish various other whippings (i.e., the rope-end's half))
H. SquaREef knot (you'll have this by either "reef" or "square" names, so ... ; pretty fundamental to tying off various things)
IX. Rolling Hitch (need something to grip at an angled loading; this benefits from securing w/#1, and shouldN'T be limited to just 2 turns)
10.  Double Lapp Bend (i.e., a Sheet Bend in reverse--ends still on same side, thus--, with 2nd (or 3rd) repeated tuck of end, and even a further tuck under its initial part)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Standing Bear on October 09, 2008, 09:44:30 PM
Thanks for all your input.  The group is kind of a Boy Scout/Girl Scout type outfit. So some but not all of them would have a camping or outdoor application.  Someone came up with these knots for the board years ago so slowly I'm changing some of them.  A couple years ago I changed the 1 half hitch to the prusik seeing if you could tie 2 half hitches you should be able to tie one.  I'm in the process of changing the bindertwine bend to something else.  The bindertwine doesn't seem to be a very secure knot.  I'd like to change it to the straight bend or alpine butterfly but haven't made up my mind.    Here's the list of knots on the knot board:
1.  square
2.  clove hitch
3.  slip knot
4.  timber hitch
5.  surgeon's knot
6.  bowline
7.  sheetbend
8.  sheep shank
9.  prusik
10.  constrictor
11. 2 half hitches
12. lariat
13. man harness
14. packer's knot
15. anchor bend
16. carrick bend
17. figure 8
18. stevedore
19. trifoil stopper knot
20. lark's head
21. cat's paw
22. taut line hitch
23. belaying
24. fisherman's knot
25. bindertwine bend

Thanks again,
Standing Bear.
 
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 10, 2008, 06:28:17 AM
Thanks for all your input.  The group is kind of a Boy Scout/Girl Scout type outfit. So some but not all of them would have a camping or outdoor application.
The aspect of application will help see given knots practised (or not),
but beyond that is the aspect of knot workings ("mechanics" I previously said), by which
one hopes that the student takes away some understanding of how knots can work:  in the
Fisherman's Knot, components slide into each other and jam secure; in Rosendahl's bend
the opposed loaded lines intertwine and achieve a secure binding on each other; and
in the folding of rope into a bight ("doubling") and then making a knot (e.g., Fig.8) in that
doubled line, one side becomes a useable eye.

I realize on reflection that my ten-set lacks much good for monofilament line;
and I had also at one point believed that the Dbl.Overhand/Strangle knot should
be given, in part as a means to securing the common, springy-slick polypropylene rope,
backing up other knots.

Quote
Someone came up with these knots for the board years ago so slowly I'm changing some of them.
A couple years ago I changed the 1 half hitch to the prusik seeing if you could tie 2 half hitches you should be able to tie one.
Although there's something about "Two Half Hitches" that mitigates against just 1, or 3, although the Two HH might be not so good
a finish--I have watched in amazement at them slowly slipping out in some 8mm low-elongation nylon kernmantle under my weight!
A third HH, or HHs put on in different orientation, or with a Slip-knot stopper rather than further HHs, might be just the ticket.
I think that the set of 25 looks about like what we'd come up with if guessing what it was--pretty traditional.

Quote
I'm in the process of changing the bindertwine bend to something else.  The bindertwine doesn't seem to be a very secure knot.
By which I take this to be an Overhand knot tied w/two ends.  This knot does have some security issues,
but is also a knot favored in rockclimbing (not without continual controversy!) to join abseil ropes.
(But I'd not be all so comfortable suggesting this to scouts, nevertheless.)


Quote
I'd like to change it to the straight bend
I'd like to straighten out the misconceptions about this so-called "Strait" bend (it is re that sort):
if you have access to the two ends, there is no reason to go making the asymmetric compromise
that is the Butterfly bend (however named).  Pick "Ashely's Bend" (Day's naming), #1452, or
maybe better (re slack security) his overlooked #1425 (no, not "Hunter's"--which is "1425a"),
or Rosendahl's bend (aka "Zeppelin", named by magazine writer)--which can be most satisfying.

Quote
or alpine butterfly but haven't made up my mind.
Hmmm, there's a better version (or two) of this, got via the Slip-knot start, but for kids, and
quicker tying, go for the Farmer's Loop--it's leapfrogging tying method is a sure winner!!
(Three rings for Elven kings, ... --no, wait, it's:
Three wraps around the hand.  The middle wrap jumps over an outside wrap,
which now is in the middle and so jumps over the other outer wrap,
which then is in the middle and so jumps over the other outer once middle wrap,
now BACK in the middle and so ... is pulled up to be the eye of the knot!  What joy!)

Quote
   Here's the list of knots on the knot board:
1.  square
2.  clove hitch
3.  slip knot
Often this name is ambiguous over whether a stopper or noose is meant:
by Ashley, it is the stopper, and in handy use to make secure knots when tying
with a bight end, there too (try a Half Hitch with bight and Slip Knot in bight).


4.  timber hitch
For improved security, strength (my surmise), and staying in place, make a round turn (or 2)
of end around the S.Part before dogging the end back around itself--kind of a friction-hitch working.


5.  surgeon's knot
Not sure how helpful this is; it seems actually LOOSER upon completion than the square,
if tied against a surface to bind, and not as a bend (where the knot will shift significantly).


6.  bowline
7.  sheetbend  [two words]
8.  sheep shank [one word]
Here's a great candidate for omission; you might use it (like #19, Trefoil") qua decoration, though?

9.  prusik [c/should be 'Prusik'--for Karl?]
10.  constrictor
11. 2 half hitches
12. lariat
Hmmm, the general structure (rope through eye knot)?; also particular eye knot--"Honda"/bowstring knot?

13. man harness  [one word]
14. packer's knot
15. anchor bend
16. carrick bend
17. figure 8
Meaning the stopper?  As I noted previously, the Overhand stopper is more useful where one
needs to place it snug to some body (e.g., knotting the end of a whipping, or with the Half Hitch.


18. stevedore
THIS could be dropped in favor of Ashely's Stopper.

19. trifoil stopper knot
Well, with "stopper" here, maybe you mean Ashley's, and not the decorative structure.
20. lark's head
21. cat's paw
22. taut line hitch
23. belaying
Cleat hitch?  (as we await Lynn's seafaring report of Rock Hall findings)

24. fisherman's knot
25. bindertwine bend

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Standing Bear on October 10, 2008, 06:24:07 PM
Wow, lots of good information you're giving me.  Here's my top ten knot list.

1.  Palomar knot
2.  Blood dropper knot
3.  Zeppelin bend, I'm a recent convert to this knot I used to use the strait bend but I think the Zeppelin is even stronger.
4.  Prusik knot
5.  Constrictor knot, I like it better than the clove hitch.
6.  Alpine butterfly, with one more step you can turn this into 2 loops.
7.  Figure 8 loop, my nephew who is an experienced caver uses this knot for a stopper knot when repelling into caves.  He puts two on the bottom of the rope, several feet apart.  If he runs out of rope his carabiner gets stopped by the first loop and he can put his foot in the lower loop to take pressure off the first loop to disentangle the carabiner.  Also like the Alpine butterfly with one more step you can turn it into 2 loops.
8.  Trucker's hitch, I use this a lot to cinch down loads tightly or anything that has to be really tight.
9.  Lariat knot
10.Buntline hitch, a very strong knot that won't accidentally come undone in my opinion

and if I could add a #11 it would probably be the turquiose turtle because I use it about every day and my shoe laces never come undone.

Some of the knots I would like to change from the list of 25 I gave on the knot board:

Sheep shank-I've spent a lot of time in the woods and have never ever used it.
Square knot- Other than light duty such as tying some bandages I don't see a whole lot of use for it.
Sheet bend- I think the Zeppelin bend is much stronger.
Clove hitch- It's all right for light duty but can come undone.
Surgeons knot
Slip knot
Trifoil stopper
Man harness-It's easy to do it the wrong way if you're in a hurry and it turns into a slip type knot.
Belay-most everyone knows this one anyway from tying flags to the cleat on a flagpole.

This is one grateful Tennessee ridge runner that has learned a whole lot of information from your posts.  You really know your stuff!


Thanks,
Standing Bear.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on October 10, 2008, 06:53:30 PM
Wow, lots of good information you're giving me.  Here's my top ten knot list.

1.  Palomar knot
2.  Blood dropper knot
3.  Zeppelin bend, I'm a recent convert to this knot I used to use the strait bend but I think the Zeppelin is even stronger.
4.  Prusik knot
5.  Constrictor knot, I like it better than the clove hitch.
6.  Alpine butterfly, with one more step you can turn this into 2 loops.
7.  Figure 8 loop, my nephew who is an experienced caver uses this knot for a stopper knot when repelling into caves.  He puts two on the bottom of the rope, several feet apart.  If he runs out of rope his carabiner gets stopped by the first loop and he can put his foot in the lower loop to take pressure off the first loop to disentangle the carabiner.  Also like the Alpine butterfly with one more step you can turn it into 2 loops.
8.  Trucker's hitch, I use this a lot to cinch down loads tightly or anything that has to be really tight.
9.  Lariat knot
10.Buntline hitch, a very strong knot that won't accidentally come undone in my opinion

and if I could add a #11 it would probably be the turquiose turtle because I use it about every day and my shoe laces never come undone.

Some of the knots I would like to change from the list of 25 I gave on the knot board:

Sheep shank-I've spent a lot of time in the woods and have never ever used it.
Square knot- Other than light duty such as tying some bandages I don't see a whole lot of use for it.
Sheet bend- I think the Zeppelin bend is much stronger.
Clove hitch- It's all right for light duty but can come undone.
Surgeons knot
Slip knot
Trifoil stopper
Man harness-It's easy to do it the wrong way if you're in a hurry and it turns into a slip type knot.
Belay-most everyone knows this one anyway from tying flags to the cleat on a flagpole.

This is one grateful Tennessee ridge runner that has learned a whole lot of information from your posts.  You really know your stuff!


Thanks,
Standing Bear.

A few random notes:
Don't you tie your shoes or finish some lashings or bindings with some form of the Reef Knot?  I would put less emphasis on strength of knots unless you're talking about fishing line.  Security and jam resistance is far more important for most rope-based applications.  Besides, if you're breaking your rope, something is very wrong. 

You might look into the Uni-Knot for fishing applications.  It's quite versatile.
http://www.in-fisherman.com/magazine/guides/cg2003Sp_Uniknot/
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on October 11, 2008, 11:42:11 AM
i tried to make point about dbl. slipped square or granny as shoe tie.  To me, a good lesson in doing things right, showing something they know, but don't know they know, showing how small changes change the mechanics; but also shws how the simplest lacing can bind, jsut by being stabilized and sitting squarely.  Stabilizing is important to these lacings to get proper lock.  Line isn't stiff and heavy like wood and steel to lock and jam; line is light and flexible and must be guarded more not to just flip free.

i could think of survival/camping uses for all the knots on board as a binding, positive, fun experience.  i think targets should be fun, general knowledge, tradition, digestible,  as well as a sound perhaps even inviting base for them to carry on such re-search on own if they liked.

Turquoise turtle is based off of square(plus round turn in one of the slipped bights).  Should show how to make proper buntline and not just Turn + 2HH; and why if showing buntline.

Trucker's hitch is a great 3:1 potential - frictions.  But, is best as device to stiffen lines to resist bending, then bending to leverage for more tiedown power.  Great on motor bike with front shox.  Anchor 1 line low, then over handlebar through another low anchor and make 3:1 on that side (for 6:1 potential), compress shock hard, tip bike that way.  Then go to other side and do same, taking away tip of bike.  Then, use tails to bend both anchor lines as shown.  The tighter you get first stage bindings,t he more the resistance to bend, the more leveraged return from the bending.  As in all things in mechanical force, the empowermeant to raise forces is in the resistance to input!  (No resistance, just gives distance gained from input, thereby no force buildup!)

Tighten or Really Tighten.jpg (http://mytreelessons.com/Tighten%20or%20really%20tighten.JPG)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Sweeney on October 11, 2008, 12:45:46 PM
This has been an interesting discussion showing that the 10 most useful knots are in fact 10 from maybe 30 - 50 depending on preference and potential usage. Would it perhaps be helpful to lay out a matrix of knots  - down the left are users from occasional-when-I-have to through the various groups eg campers, climbers, boaters and across the top loop, bend, hitch etc. That way someone without ABOK (there must be somebody!) but with internet access say can look at their likely ten best knots (not the 10 best knots but knots we would as a Guild recommend? Many websites list knots by useage but for a novice this can be a confusing choice.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SS369 on October 11, 2008, 03:43:58 PM
It's also interesting to see what the commercial knot entrepreneurs are selling in this vein. Here is list picked at random from the sale of knot tying illustrations.

Bowline
Bowline on a Bight
Buntline Hitch
Clove Hitch
Constrictor Knot
Double Fisherman?s
Figure Eight
Mooring Hitch
Rolling Hitch
Sheet Bend
Square Knot
Tautline Hitch
Trucker?s Hitch
Water Knot


Just a sample of what's sold. not my picks though.
In my opinion, the basic knots learned in the Boy Scouts have served fairly well in what to learn in the beginning.
SS
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Mason on October 30, 2008, 09:00:44 PM
Given the ages that you have quoted, and assuming that "hitches" also count, here's the list I come up with off the top of my head.  It is oriented towards offering a variety of options and applications that are all quite simple. 

Square Knot
Surgeon's Knot
Lap Knot
Adjustable Grip Hitch
Clove Hitch
Boom Hitch
Figure Eight
Bowline
Munter Hitch
Round Turn and Two Half Hitches
Alpine Butterfly
Harness Bend
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on November 12, 2008, 07:18:22 PM
"Bump"

i think this is still an important topic to explore.  Perhaps requalify in different ways...

i assume we are all talking about working class knots.

Next, all from varied backgrounds; and then views of how things should work in that scope.  Perhaps we could find more agreement in defining different specialties of lacings; then types of "machines" needed in that specialty, even in their approximate order of relevance.  Then, we could 'argue' which 'machine' lacing was best for each need of each scope.  Then, perhaps what was best overall collection??

Special-ties would be like boating, fishing, shipping, climbing etc.  'Machines' needed would for specific purposes like: stopper, friction hitch, rope bend,  shrinking eye (noose), non shrinking eye(bowline), power increase etc. 

This is all pretty contrary to my own philosophy of categorization by mechanix; but view that is more proposed towards study than introduction.  This is kinda an  internal workings back of the house / business end vs. face side/front of the house type imagery.  So, i still think that the front door view should be left invitingly open generously to all comers(guests?); but then discarded as not really fitting whenst one settles down to really working to understand knots and become part of the inside workings of this thing which we due hear, themselves.   Especially when one talks about young scouts etc.; but really anyone.  This/ these arts should not die out any further.  But, probably will; and in the time of our passing thru, plotting purpose-fully against such an end might be all we can do!
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: MiloBennett on November 24, 2008, 05:43:42 PM
1. Sheet Bend - it is ABoK #1 for a reason. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZBOLte9kXo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZBOLte9kXo)
2. Bowline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8JtYMf1VXw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8JtYMf1VXw)
3. Double Dragon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIVU_38ol-8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIVU_38ol-8)
4. Rope Coil because what good is a knot if the rope is all tangled. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGnL9wIHLBU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGnL9wIHLBU)
5. Larks head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsXxyo3EhM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsXxyo3EhM)
6. Surgeons Bend because reef knots are not as reliable http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Fr6HAyfzc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Fr6HAyfzc)
7. Peg Hitch because a pocket full of pegs just makes rope better and you have to start somewhere. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZfgakjUXEM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZfgakjUXEM)
8. Markingspike Hitch because pulling on a rope hurts my hands  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgb_ydwXO7U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgb_ydwXO7U)
9. Eye Splice strongest loop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ETjsIHLg0M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ETjsIHLg0M)
10. Pole Hitch because rope is used to lift things and a pole is handy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J3Y_TYqFKM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J3Y_TYqFKM)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: preventec47 on November 28, 2008, 09:44:39 PM
I'd like to present a totally different perspective with a sincere desire
not to offend anyone.   I am I think the perfect novice and can say
at 50 years of  age I have functioned all my life only knowing one
 "fancy" ( meaning I kniew it had a special name )  knot
that was taught to me by my father ( not counting tying my shoes )
and two knots that I think  everyone knows instintively. 
I have used lots of rope in my life and have  a good idea
of the possible common applications.

I think the two knots everyone knows instincteivly is an overhand
knot and   a loop made in the end or the middle of of a rope
called I think an  "overhand loop".   I fully acknowledge that
they cannot be untied if I have used the correct name for them.

I have designed built and flown my own airplanes, had some formal
engineering educaiton, and been a custom home builder.  In all that
I have had the need to tie many things to trailers and boxes etc.

While I can see the beauty of many of the knots discussed and
indeed  plan on selecting another 2 or 3 to learn. I can tell you
that with the  realization that knots need to be able to be
untied, I have accomplished  everything in my life with only
half hitchs  and overhand knots to lock them along with
the loops at the end of the ropes which were ok to be
permanent.  My constant frustration was never being
able to remove loops tied in the middle of lines.

Well I am rambling here...  I just want to say that
for knot hobbiests probably all the knots mentioned
and suggested previously in this thread are wonderful but
for the common layperson with an above average need
to tie knots,
I doubt if more than four "purebred" knots
need to be known.  In fact I am shooting
for only three and havent decided on what my fourth
important knot needs to be or why I need it yet.

Oh and also the overhand loop tied into the other end of my ropes.
 I always used the overhand loop end of my ropes as nooses with the
other end of the rope slipped through the loops as once tied those
 loops are permanent. I always thought that was just a given
constraint.

Haveing spent a couple of days and many hours reading all about the
dozens of different fantastic knots at about a dozen websites I think
I am fascinated most by  the taught-line-hitch  as I can see that the
adjustability of the size of the loop could have helped me in my life
 by not forcing me to use the brute force methods of making the
 ropes tight before I installed my half hitches.  But it would
have been a convenience only as I made do with half hitches.

I can also see the need to be able to put  a loop in the middle of a
line that can be untied because every time I ever tried it the
loop became permanent.   I may be wrong but I think what
I was doing was using the overhand loop.   I havent really
been able to determine just which knot will be the best
one for putting  a loop in the middle of a line as it
is not abundantly clear which ones are easiest to
untie.  There are so many to choose from it would appear.

So far these are the two additional knots I really want to learn
and  practice with so I will remember always  and would add
significantly to my effectiveness in the field of practical usage.
I guess that makes a total of three that I think I will
ever need in everyday life.   I know there are maybe
one or two more that I might use but dont know the
names of such as when tying something around a post.
Well, no I always used maybe a few turns and then
a few half hitches ending with an overhand knot
to lock it all up.

Anyway, as the dumbest knot-tie-er here, I would point
out that everyone already knows an overhand knot
and an overhand loop and show the farmer or neighborhood
kid that the "half hitch" as the 1st and next most important
knot that he ever needs to know.

I am fascinated by it all for the first time in my life
and am anxious to learn but I merely wanted to point
out that it is unreasonable to expect a common laymen
to know more than 3 or 4 "proper" or "purebred" knots.

Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: squarerigger on November 29, 2008, 03:22:17 AM
Hi Preventec,

This is the original question as presented.  It would appear that your response is more aligned toward what might be the most important daily life knots which, I would venture to say, depends on your affinity for or against using a rope or a piece of string as a readily available tool that might be carried in any pocket or in the form of a knotted belt.

Hi everyone.  I teach knots to a large group of children ages 11-18.  They have a knot board of 25 knots they have to complete for their knot honor patch.  I realize most children won't remember 25 knots after they complete the board.  My question is if you had to distill your knot list to say 10 or 12 of the most essential "must have" knots what would they be?  Thanks for your input.

Standing Bear

Having said that, of course, you have a valid question as to which knots would be important for a non-knot-tyer.  I have heard it expressed by many that "If you cannot tie the right knot, tie lots" meaning that many half-hitches, single hitches or overhand knots might well hold an unimportant load, but will probably not stand up to ease of use, simplicity in accomplishing the purpose or ease of untying which, as you correctly have pointed out from your own experience, is a very important aspect of knot-tying.

Given all of that, does it not seem reasonable to:

a)  Learn ten knots, in case the one you are using does not fit the purpose you need to fulfill,
b)  Learn how to tie knots that are readily undone and yet hold the load effectively,
c)  Not have to be reliant on other more expensive tools and gadgets that get lost, corrode and fall into disrepair?

If not, and I suspect this may be your answer, you have done well to have gone through five decades of life without their need.  What your life might have become had you known this we can only surmise - and we can never know, because our avocation is to practice tying knots as if our lives depended on them (which they sometimes do).  Yours appears not to be such and I applaud your paucity of knots for surely you must have enriched your life in some other more palatable way than learning a simple knot or two?  Perhaps that way which you have enjoyed is for you, but I am unable to envisage a life in which knots, the right knots, do not figure.  Maybe that is my loss or gain - only time will tell.  I have had a wonderful time learning and growing in my physical abilities, dexterity, mental faculties, writing abilities, never having a lack of things to do, never wanting for some interesting twist to what is possible, and being able to share with my fellow knot-tyers in a skill that is arguably one of mankind's oldest tools and oldest learned skills.  Long live the right knot for the job!

SR ;D
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Sweeney on November 29, 2008, 12:32:39 PM
This is an interesting development and made me think. Until I was about 28 the only knot I could remember was the reef or square knot taught to me by my mother at the age of about 6. Someone in a warehouse I supervised showed me how to splice an old piece of (real) hemp so I found a book on the subject of knots and the rest as they say is history.  I do remember endless frustration at the inability of a reef knot to act as a hitch and found 2 half hitches the hard way! Then curiosity took over having found that the world has more than one knot. However I sometimes think that we approach knotting from the wrong end of the telescope - my son in law is a carpenter; he needs knots but his attempts range from amusing to downright dangerous. What he does appreciate is the method of achieving an objective and if that calls for a knot then he'll have a go at learning one as long as its easy and quick (actually untying is not an issue as like many builders he uses very cheap polypropylene rope and "unties" with a knife).

But the pressure comes from the situation not the desire to learn a knot for what appears to be its own sake (OK so I and most others disagree but the reality is that knots are often used when all else fails - then they probably do too).  Perhaps we should be looking for the 10(?) situations when a knot really is a very good if not the only answer and then suggest appropriate knots - you never know there might only turn out to be about 4! So perhaps we finish up with the 10 or so most useful knots for a would-be enthusiast and the 10 situations where a novice knot tyer would benefit from a little knowledge.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on November 30, 2008, 12:31:49 AM
Preventec47 and Sweeney,

I believe that you are both right - here is a paste from reply No. 3 to this post -

Tying up bean poles in the garden -- cable ties?  Gaffa tape? or a simple constrictor in hairy garden string?

Tying on a load -- Bungee cord?  ratchet straps?  (and yes, I have seen a load strapped on with Gaffa) or an Alpine loop and Z hitch?

Stabilising a Gazebo -- Bungee straps?  or Sliding Grip Hitch in 3mm braided polyester?

Fixing to a pole and don't want it to slip -- cable ties and Gaffa? or a KC Hitch using old bailer twine?

Temporary closure  --  Magnetic catch? or a Chinese button tied in elastic cord?


Preventec47, I would make a guess that you do not know what a constrictor is, how to tie one or what it is particularly good at -- I would also hazard a guess that once I showed you how easy it is to tie over your thumb, how easy it is to remember and how astonishingly good it is at doing what it is best at - staying tight - that two things would happen.  First, you would wonder why no one told you about this knot before and why you have had to waste so much of your life tying multiple overhand knots that never quite tie tight enough and ALWAYS seem to loosen when asked to do some real work.  Second, you would think - if the constrictor is so simple to tie and remember and so amazing at its job - what other knots are there that are brilliant at others jobs that might also be quite easy to tie and to remember???

Then Preventec47 you will have a choice - Take your newly acquired constrictor knot back to the land of the sane people and their reef knots and overhand knots, - or you can do as so many who come here have done, think that you can perhaps learn just one or two more useful ones and then stop there - which one should you choose?  The sliding grip hitch sound useful, but then the KC hitch sounds good as well, just the thing to fix that lantern onto a vertical scaffold pole --

BUT BEWARE

One minute you are a sane user of overhand knots, and then suddenly your friends are giving you funny glazed looks as you explain to them why they need to learn a few more knots and why your Biro has a Turks head finger grip on it and you keys jangle on a fob and your pocket knife has its lanyard and - oh yes - there is now ALWAYS a handy piece of fiddling string in every pocket of your trousers -- then my friend, you will know what it is like to be a knotting nutter.

Is there a sane middle ground?  Somehow I doubt it, but equally I am sure that I would rather know how to easily and safely use cord and rope than not know, so I am stuck with the challenge of picking my opportunities to help out a friend with a quick Constrictor or perhaps even the impressive Boa - watch them struggle with the realisation that that was both easy and unbelievably effective, then wait for the moment to bewitch them with the incredible KC hitch.

My mission is simple - I do not want to make people into knotting anoraks I just want to show them that a few very simple knots work incredibly well and can make their lives so much easier.

Oh, and Preventec, do not give up on that slipped overhand knot - it is really easy to make it into one of the easiest and nicest knots to untie while making it a little bit stronger at the same time -- interested in finding out how???

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on November 30, 2008, 02:23:57 AM
i think knowing the knots is a step closer to understanding the dictating forces/ mechanics of all.  You could carry twist ties, hose clamps, duct tape, ratchet straps and /or a generic slip of line to make do on the spot, in many forms. 

i think too, one might look at knowing a few base forms, then their variances.  Like, L-earn the Clove, to know the Constrictor, slipped Clove,Transom and Constrictor, Transom, Tautline, Bunt Line, Distel,  Bag Knot etc.  In that 'family' of construction, many spokes off the center hub; and many lessons in construction and use; covering many applications.

i lost my previous knot building set in a disk crash a while back.  So, in trying to rebuild, only better i started with a Clove Animation (http://www.mytreelessons.com/flash/animateClove.swf) for it's basic usefullness, and basis of many knots.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 01, 2008, 08:32:27 PM
I am I think the perfect novice and can say at 50 years of  age I have functioned all my life only knowing one
 "fancy" ( meaning I kniew it had a special name )  knot  that was taught to me by my father ( not counting tying my shoes )
and two knots that I think  everyone knows instintively.   I have used lots of rope in my life and have  a good idea
of the possible common applications.
You should find this voice called for in the thread I started entitled "Knots in the Wild",
which seeks to focus on what actual rope users actually tie.  One can be surprised at
the gulf sometimes between this actual set and what is presented in knots books.

Quote
I think the two knots everyone knows instincteivly is an overhand knot and
a loop made in the end or the middle of of a rope called I think an  "overhand loop".

Do you ever tie that eyeknot by using the END of the rope?  (E.g., how would you tie the
knot to a telephone pole?  --presumably not by making it in the bight and then removing
all the wires from the pole to slip the knot down around.  :D )

Quote
I have accomplished everything in my life with only half hitchs  and overhand knots to lock them
along with the loops at the end of the ropes which were ok to be permanent.

But "everything" might have been limited by circumstance or simply not being aware that cordage
could be employed to solve some task (though you don't sound as though you had such feelings).
How would you join two ropes?  I can of course see 2HH-ing each line to the other, but that strikes
me as a pretty unsatisfactory joint, esp. if the lines' diameters were much different.  --to wit:
Quote
I always thought that was just a given constraint.
But it isn't, and a knowledge of knotting would "set you free" from this constraint.

Quote
just want to say that for knot hobbiests probably all the knots mentioned and suggested previously
in this thread are wonderful, but for the common layperson with an above average need to tie knots,
I doubt if more than four "purebred" knots need to be known.  In fact I am shooting for only three and havent
decided on what my fourth important knot needs to be or why I need it yet.

Again, Knots in the Wild takes a l :ok at what IS done, from which we might then deliberate.
(Setting up conch pots entails a stopper in the pot side usually (Overhand or some Dbl. version),
your beloved Overhand Loop in the 1-2 legs of the pot bridle, and sometimes something as klunky
as a Clove hitch of the 3rd leg to the 1-2 legs' eye & 2HH tying off its end (and THEN hogringed!),
and a Sheet Bend (or dbl) of haul line or snood to the eye --that's 4-5ish; but I've seen the 3rd-leg
attachment to the Overhand loop done by reeving the end through the Oh. and stoppering it with
an Oh. Stopper--which stays within your set.

Quote
Having spent a couple of days and many hours reading all about the dozens of different fantastic knots ...
Then go out "into the Wild" and try to find living specimens of these knotters' fancies:  it could be impossible!
(Though I did once find a most enjoyably comical use of the Sheepshank (two, actually) in a climbing anchor!)

Quote
am fascinated most by  the taught-line-hitch
Which you can find so misspelled, but it's not an educated knot but one able to be used when a line's taut.
As with other friction hitches, YMMV on its efficacy.  Alas, what books have yet to present is the notion of
using this hitch in conjunction with "guard" structures such as a (preceding) Half-hitch/turn (or double)
on the line, or in tandem.

Quote
I can also see the need to be able to put  a loop in the middle of a line that can be untied
because every time I ever tried it the loop became permanent.   I may be wrong but I think what
I was doing was using the overhand loop.   ... There are so many to choose from it would appear.
The Overhand loop is I'll guess the most commonly tied eye knot, end or middle of line.
When you NEEDED such a loop, did you know in what direction it was to be loaded
or were there situations in which you would load it in opposition to both ends at some point?
Because there is a subclass of knots known as "directional" eyeknots that have a one-way
orientation--i.e.., the eye is to be pulled in opposition to only ONE end, not either (whereas
the commonly known "Butterfly" knot can be loaded against either end).  There are indeed
many mid-line eyeknots, but few are publicly known; I'd guess that most "loopknots" are not
well suited for such use.

Quote
So far these are the two additional knots I really want to learn ...

I'd suggest that the tautline H. become more of a knotting stucture that you learn
--i.e., that some turns brought tight around an object can grip, and that there are various
ways to set and secure them--rather than "a knot" (one version, called a "Camel Hitch"
by one author, can be seen as just a 3-turn grip secured by your 2HHitches, e.g.);
the mid-line eyeknot is more suitably simply a new knot for you.  (I'll suggest that you
look up "the farmer's loop", which is fun to tie and pretty easy to remember--and not
itself tied up with nautical mists/myths.)

Quote
I would make a guess that you do not know what a constrictor is, how to tie one or what it is particularly good at
-- I would also hazard a guess that once I showed you how easy it is to tie over your thumb, how easy it is to remember and
how astonishingly good it is at doing what it is best at - staying tight - that two things would happen.  First, you would wonder
why no one told you about this knot before and why you have had to waste so much of your life tying multiple overhand knots
that never quite tie tight enough and ALWAYS seem to loosen when asked to do some real work.  Second, you would think
- if the constrictor is so simple to tie and remember and so amazing at its job - what other knots are there that are brilliant at
others jobs that might also be quite easy to tie and to remember???
Or, you might wonder, if it's all so bloody brilliant, and was promoted so much by The Knot Tyer's Bible (aka "Ashley"),
why is it not found In The Wild, employed by actual rope users?!  --after all these years, and all those knots books hyping
its indispensability!??  --as opposed to Clove & follow-on Half hitches, and other mundane structures.  (But I did just put on
a whipping--nice pink braided mason line on blue half-inch arborist rope--with a Dbl.Con. version, #1253 (something else
on the other end, though--variety, the spice of life (gold cord, too)).)


--dl*
====
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on December 01, 2008, 09:44:39 PM
I don't understand Dan,

Are you suggesting that if the only knots we find in the wild are things like this

(http://knotbox1.pbwiki.com/f/JobKnot.jpg)

that we should quit trying to introduce folks to knots of the ilk of the Constrictor?

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 02, 2008, 04:03:50 AM
Quote
. . .  knots we find in the wild . . .

Ahhhh, wow, that work of art; that je ne sais faux pas de deux par excellence, tres (or deux) manifique!
May we? Mai oui!

Or this:

Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 02, 2008, 06:08:19 AM
I don't understand Dan, ...  should-//-we quit trying to introduce folks to knots of the ilk of the Constrictor?

We should wonder why the longstanding recommendation for this knot (as for various others)
does not show effect!?  Because Ashley isn't completely hidden, and many other books hype
the Constrictor as well; but it doesn't seem to have found a life in practical knotting (though
we might wonder how well the search for in-use knotting has gone).  *I* have yet to find it.
(Thought I had, as whipping, once; but it was Clove w/ends further HH'd--and damn tight!)

But, sure, I believe in knotting improvements--optimist of sorts, there.  I'm less enthusiastic
about the Constrictor i.p., though, which pops up on many lists of essential knots, and I
can't see its value, really.  (As noted above, I have used it in whipping (and have found
such knots loosened!), but usually prefer the extended Strangle (w/extra buried twist),
and of late some play--for play's sake & experience--with misc. HH-like components,
in a flat-profile material (thin strips from fribrilated PP fibres!).)  I find it surprising that
none of the 3-leg conch-pot bridles I've seen had been tied what to my mind is both
simplest & most material-efficient:  put the 3rd leg end w/1-2legs' bight and THEN
tie the Overhand w/all three--yielding an eye to tie the snood or buoy line to, and
securing the 3rd leg.  One fell soup.  I have seen the case, as noted, of reeving the
3rd leg through the 1-2legs' Oh. and then making an Oh. stopper in it (photo'd, too),
which is simple & m-efficient.  And I've seen some rather comical joining, as shown!

And I've seen evidence of "untying with a knife" in cases where the knots COULD
be undone w/o much trouble, really.  (Also, working w/some lobstermen putting up
new longlines and removing old hitched snoods (near-Groundline H. w/end tucked),
I found that I could untie the old knot faster than this other fellow was cutting it off.)

--dl*
====

Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on December 03, 2008, 05:12:47 PM
Ummm, even away from climbing/rigging/rescue apps and knot 'play'; a Constrictor or that bag knot variation is'are a favorite for me for mending and hose clamping, as wella s termintations.  A lot of times going to bag knot or Groundline, especially for a slipped forms for holding temporarys well.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Knotty Girl on December 03, 2008, 06:02:15 PM
I thought I'd weigh in from a Scout's perspective. I think your list of knots should be determined by your audience. In this particular case, you're teaching knots to Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts so your list should include knots used for camping, hikng and other outdoor activities as well as emergency and rescue knots, climbing knots and some fishing knots. You may not be able to keep it 10. You also need to take into consideration what knots these Scouts are going to be "tested" on to achieve their various ranks and you need to teach them those knots regardless of your personal opinion of a particular knot.

Next week, my Webelos will begin working on their own knot boards. We'll review the square, fisherman's, overhand, bowline, half hitch, and sheet bend knots that they should have learned as Bears and Wolves. We'll add to this the clove hitch and taut-line hitch. That's 8 knots. All of these knots will be required when they cross over into Boy Scouts and are earning their Tenderfoot and First Class ranks.

I think you've got a pretty good list already, but I appreciate the fact that you want to fine tune it and stream line it. Just be careful what you cut.

Knotty Girl
Cadette Girl Scout Leader Troop 41934
Webelos Cub Scout Den Leader Den 5
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on December 03, 2008, 06:37:16 PM
Perhaps this is an indicator as to why we tend not to find the Constrictor in the wild, we just don't teach it to our kids.

Two grades and no sign of the Constrictor, yet it is the knot I probably use more than any other (I also start with a Constrictor, poke the end through and dress with a pull to make the Myrtle loop, then tie out the end with a strangle).

I wonder how often we would see it in the wild if it managed to get on the list of 'knots to be learnt'

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 03, 2008, 11:10:50 PM
I thought I'd weigh in from a Scout's perspective. I think your list of knots should be determined by your audience.

And I wonder if the girls would take (more readily than boys) to tying decorative knots
(not excluding the practical, but in addition to ...)!?

Quote
... some fishing knots. You may not be able to keep it 10.
"10" is an unfortunate number, based on its "roundness".  And what can be learned should
easily grow from some core, where the additional knots are seen as variations.
As for "fishing" knots, I don't really see any in your list; the basic one might be the
Angler's/Perfection Loop, fairly easily tied in monofilament line.  I recommend that
your "Overhand"--which I presume to be the stopper knot--be incorporated (or at
least shown how to be so) in the Clove & taut-line (well, Rolling:  tied to object) hitches
as a way to prevent the locking HHitch from loosening (ditto for use w/2HHitches).
If the Clove is show qua binder, it's a simple step to bring in part of the "Square"
tying to yield the Constrictor.

Quote
You also need to take into consideration what knots these Scouts are going to be "tested" on

Oh, indeed the IGKT should:  but with an eye to advising about the merit of that tested-on set,
not merely accepting it.  Now, for some years (or some decade plus ago), the Surrey Six was a set
put forward and taught in just this spirit.

Thanks,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on December 04, 2008, 12:59:02 AM
the Surrey Six was a set
put forward and taught in just this spirit.


Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 04, 2008, 08:06:44 AM
Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.
Google answers that ("yes"), nominally--then it's up to interpreting "hitch".  (They show a round turn
in the Fig.8 eye around an object.)  It could work qua ring hitch and as a minimal version of
the Timber hitch, and in a noose (in a few orientations, one shown by CLDay).)  Interesting that the
single & not double sheet bend is presented, given the motivation for this set (slippery cordage).

(Sorry to see that their site suggests that one has "over 3800 [knots] to choose from", alas.)

 :)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on December 04, 2008, 07:43:23 PM

Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.

Now a re-threaded 8 with one or two round turns - that is a hitch to be reckoned with - if I wanted a 'life anchor' that's what I would choose and you could laugh all you wanted.

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on December 04, 2008, 08:02:45 PM

Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.

Now a re-threaded 8 with one or two round turns - that is a hitch to be reckoned with - if I wanted a 'life anchor' that's what I would choose and you could laugh all you wanted.

Derek

Ok, I'll bow to absurdity.  I think I'll put a round turn in all my loop knots just for fun and so I can call them hitches. (j/k)  Well, except I still would avoid the figure 8.  Too jammy.

I'm glad the IGKT website has chosen not to endorse or list the Surrey 6.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 05, 2008, 04:01:11 AM
Now a re-threaded 8 with one or two round turns - that is a hitch to be reckoned with - if I wanted a 'life anchor' that's what I would choose and you could laugh all you wanted.
Derek
Ok, I'll bow to absurdity.
I think I'll put a round turn in all my loop knots just for fun and so I can call them hitches. (j/k)

I think this discussion is starting to drift!
There are some uses of a "hitch"--a tying notion--in which the structure is so named
because it is a tying TO something (in contrast to making an eye that awaits employment).
Thus, in the case of some eyeknots, such "hitching" entails a "re-threaded" vs. "in the bight"
tying, by which it's distinguished.
And, for some obviously OTHEReason (or bereft of reason!), the angler's "Spider Hitch"
is named a hitch--I don't know why.
But it's this notion, I think, and not the turns present in the eye, for which "hitch"
is used.  (You could raise the question to Howard Denyer.)

As for Derek's assertion, I'm wondering:  could you be meaning the Tensionless
Hitch (which in fact I recently photographed a matching pair of, at a climbing site
--it's a structure I think is silly in most uses!)?

 :)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on December 05, 2008, 06:18:16 PM
IMLHO the Tensionless Hitch is a model of superior strategy by professing not to let the Bitter End really deform the Standing.  Then the only deformity is by the size of the mount, and how frictions go.  Because the change in elastic stretch (and therefore diameter) etc. besides the most noted change from inline/unleveraged deformity by itself or mount while loaded \resisting such deformities) is another of suddenly impacting (thanx drLehman i believe) change as Standing goes to hitchings,  it isn't perfect, only better.  But also a good target imagery of the holy grail of limiting impacting changes to fully loaded (and inline) Standing (Tension) Part for maximum strength.   i've seen/used a Tensionless Hitch  2 ways, A) where the Bitter End is anchored to the Standing, and B) where the Bitter end is then anchored to something else/ not to the Standing (Tension) Part.  Of course B) doesn't bend/deform the Standing at all, no impacts or low(nor spin on that 1 dimension).  This is where 'strength' is more dependent on host/mount size/ bending of Standing (deformity by Bitters is limited/Zer0), but then still would suffer from weaknesses per the other type of 'upsetting the flow' changes(and their suddenness)  as stated earlier.  Best is no change, force flowing in 1 dimension, as this changes to 2 dimensions etc. we have leverage(but then must recognize changes in 3 dimensions (not just inline pull altered by single, simple bend).

But, in using strategy A) i think in terms of impacting (which could lead to a more deformed Standing (Tension) Part than Cow, Clove Running Bowline etc.)  or slick (surface) host/mount could give different results than a rough spar, by bending Standing more than other situations.  i think the idea is to get such a reduction of force in line as it trails to Bitters, that the Bitter End doesn't bend / deform the Standing (Tension) Part; so i like to think in terms of a Round Turn crossing itself under the main tension of the Standing, then another Turn or more, then attach to Standing by Bowline or 'krab'(carabiner) for more modular setup/ breakdown, quick release.  But, all these strategies can turn against ye, if the direction of the loading changes, and the line is set hard, so now eye  can bend Standing more (if pull direction is away from the Standing).  so, now the tables are turned; for the same non-slip for less tension in Bitter End that seems superior, can now (direction dependent) against us, as that means less self adjustmeant to lower loading (Nature would otherwise seek out).  Strategy B) does allow this self adjustmeant. 

As to the 10 most wanted, perhaps that is audience dependent (as a number), perhaps the youngest would have a target of 4 or 6 in scouts.  Even later, could keep it low yet high, by learning Clove or almost Clove, at the point of a Crossed Turn + Turn) to make Constrictor, Bag Knot (if the Bitter tail finishes as a linear Round Turn, rather than Turn, could we call it a Double Bagger?), Groundline for 4 knots known(but really 1 base + 4 different 'endings' with Bitter End). But, then the wealth of background and knots to know for the scout leader hustling to L-earn these things, would be more to fill in blanks and adjust to specific uses etc., able to field questions etc.   i think ye'ol Guilde should have a setup, tiered recommendations of such things perhaps extending to fishing specialties etc.(then ask that audience and grow, expand), and take their place as the authority of these things(on internet and elsewhere), to these youngest (deepest planted seeds of future) for own good as well as fighting these things from becoming extinct.  Those that wandered in here with this question should have come to the right place, and have it waiting for them, if not at least the immediate place/places to go.  They should not have to chase it down as we've had to; where else is an informed person going to look first?  Who has a better chance of having that whole audience, doing the most good etc.?  Perhaps in time evolve to recomended scenarios (camping etc.) to teach in fun setting and applications of actual use, downloadable pdf, whatever.

"Bag Knot" Animation (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/animateBagKnot.swf)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 07, 2008, 05:38:49 AM
IMLHO the Tensionless Hitch is a model of superior strategy by professing not to let the Bitter End really deform the Standing.

Mariners roll in their watery graves with each Spydery use of "bitters":  for the origin of that isn't about
an ultimate end, but about a rough third of rope at the bitts, vs. at the opposite end, or the rope spanning
the distance between  ::)

What irks me re the oft'-seen use of the Tensionless H. in making top-rope rockclimbing anchors
is that it begs the question "What will you do for an encore?!"--i.e,. super strong HERE (not the
bitter end, but around a tree, the *barker* one  :D ), but what about at the climber's end eye?
AND it's more of a PITAss to set up, tediously wrapping rope around & around (3 arounds should
suffice, points out OnRope1's MythBuster).  AND-#2 it is harder on the tree, bringing in full force
on one side, with ample material stretch to see the rope move under load against the bark
(although the many wraps might l00k like padding).
Whereas the simple solution comes by just passing a bight of rope (simpler if one has a LONG
rope and fetching the end would be a bother) around the tree and tying off with a bowline and
appropriate securing of that.
Usually these soooo-strong anchor makers complement their silliness by insisting on LOCKING
'biners in the eyes of the Fig.8 eyeknots to clip to the Ten.H.'s SPart--preventing clever squirrels
and other miscreants from opening a regular 'biner, no doubt!!

 :-\
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on December 07, 2008, 01:07:49 PM
'Mariners rolling in their watery graves' - they should be pleased that their idiotic terminology did not die out with them and is still finding some semblance of use long beyond its context of creation.

As for the squirrel proof locked bina.  Have you ever been climbing?

Many times I have been on a pitch that was within my physical ability and skill level, yet something in my subconscious insisted that I could not climb it.  Then is when the trust in ones second, the tree anchor belay and the squirrel proof bina come into play and deal an equally illogical counter argument to the subconscious.  Then, with adrenalin rushing, you execute the climb faultlessly and clock up another memorable achievement.

Long live the squirrel proof locked bina, illogical I know, but Priceless.

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on December 07, 2008, 01:57:44 PM
Locked krabs are real important when a person might be 'rolling around' at different angles etc.; especially with  line running through krab(that could even spin a lock, thus other lock strategies).  And we all ways must think in terms of a fall incident too, where such jostling and even pressures on gate/keeper (by stick, belt, gut etc.) could open the krab.  Even if line doesn't come out, the open gate will weaken the structure.  this could be especially important during impacts on line and/or when loading is away from solid back 'spine' of krab properly, but more towards (or even across axis of) gate.  Thereby the warnings about using a cinching tight noose/shrinking type eye to krab connection; as opposed to a fixed eye (like bowline) that could then leverage krab with open gate...  Bowline to Krab Warning (http://mytreelessons.com/Carabiner%20&%20Bowlines.htm).  We must maintain this fail-safe frame of mind, bordering out injuries and fatalities from most forces, weakness and human failing; striking the system at once...

i think some of this (Tensionless etc.) is about making each module/machine piece as worthy as possible, as a mantra, pushing the art form like that etc.  Especially, when life is on the line.  so even though, there'd be a sense to making all positions in the chain as strong as the other (because chain is only as strong as weakest point), why purposefully make a specific point weaker than ya have to?  Especially, when other parts of the line might be bent/bent here and there  for whatever amount of time, but the anchoring deformations will be at that same point all the time/ it is guaranteed point of constant loading if any loading (whether climber is at top or bottom of line).

But, once again, i think the greatest gift of Tensionless, is in modeling other rigs/knots after it's principals!  And, thus another point for full familiarity with Tensionless(by using it)!

Perhaps i've taken sum liscence with the nomenclature, but i mean the Bitter End or termination of force(s), the nip trapped/lock parts, and kinda abbreviated ya know like Bowl, RT etc. to fit; and let these things (of knots) be carried on/ not die and even be explored more(as real aim).

What purposes should these holy 10 cover?

Fixed Eye, shrinking eye /noose, power (truckers), mending/binding/anchoring closure, fishing, friction hitch, midline eye, stopper, bending lines together, quick release, throwing knot, water/beer for flat line (or tubing?), dbl. slipped square for shoes?, rescue seat?

Does the Adjsutable Hitch (http://www.layhands.com/Knots/Knots_Hitches.htm) (that i've worked in flat/webbing quite well) fit for all the things acclaimed as perhaps all-around champ (if'n ya had to pick 1)?
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 07, 2008, 07:26:40 PM
Locked krabs are real important when a person might be ...
... charged with boosting the economy.  Beyond that, as I indicated, they are a complementarily
ridiculous part of a too-clever-by-half anchor system for TR--period.  (Consider against all that
spew for a biner the very name here:  "tensionLESS"--why, no knot at all should be necessary
(the no-knot can withstand less tension beautifully).  (And your earlier post argued why the
unconstrained TH was better on change of direction.)

 ;D
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on December 07, 2008, 08:24:38 PM
All i can tell ya is that hanging 80' off hard ground and looking down to see an open krab is a scary feeling...  And overkill is for underkill!

(k)Now in all unfairness, an anchor position like this would be less subject to all those forces; but at same time, less inspectable.  So if ya got'em, use'em or double up etc.  What does it take fer that peace of mind?
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 08, 2008, 12:35:24 AM
All i can tell ya is that hanging 80' off hard ground and looking down to see an open krab is a scary feeling...  And overkill is for underkill!

If you are looking "down" at a TR anchor you are upside-down.
At some point, you have made decisions of "good enough"--such as using only the "one" rope,
not two (rockclimbers do have the option of using two, "twin" ropes, e.g.--2x (7.5-8mm) vs. 1 x (9.2-10.5mm)).
You have used "only" 11mm or whatever and not half-inch or more, and so on.  A competing structure here,
again, is simply to pull a bight (or end) of rope around the tree and tie off with a Bowline of some sort,
which omits consuming a 'biner (locking or otherwise) and wrapping the rope a few times around the
tree.  There is a neat use of the Fig.8 structure here, too.

As for the TH, might as well just tie off directly to the rope.  A 'biner isn't coming undone; maybe its shiny
appeal might depart with a thief--the biggest, albeit slim chance of failure.

Now, I don't think that the Ten.H. is a good candidate for Top Ten (and am not wedded to "Ten").

(-;
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on December 08, 2008, 01:34:28 PM
Ummmmm i meant looking down locally at your belt and seeing open(even 'locked' with spin gate) or leveraged krab, not remotely at support.  The remote, uninspectable location; would get better setup than inspectable i believe...  At least with my sorry carc-azz on the line it does!  If gate on anchor (etc.) is pointing up something can fall on it, if facing down, it can be pressed into something etc.  Different angles, impacts, tension cycles, slack etc. can combine with outside events at any time, just not everytime.  It all depends on where you choose to draw the line at(ummm so to speak); for at what point your own life is accesible, free to the forces seeking it out of you!
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on December 08, 2008, 06:05:03 PM

Is that the same Surrey Six that recommended a re-threaded figure 8 loop as a hitch?  LOL.

Now a re-threaded 8 with one or two round turns - that is a hitch to be reckoned with - if I wanted a 'life anchor' that's what I would choose and you could laugh all you wanted.

Derek

Ok, I'll bow to absurdity.  I think I'll put a round turn in all my loop knots just for fun and so I can call them hitches. (j/k)  Well, except I still would avoid the figure 8.  Too jammy.

I'm glad the IGKT website has chosen not to endorse or list the Surrey 6.

Just out of interest, have the IGKT decided not to endorse the Surrey 6, and if they have, does anyone have any idea just why 'they' made this decision and who was involved in making it?

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on December 08, 2008, 07:06:39 PM
...does anyone have any idea just why 'they' made this decision ...

I could venture a guess.  Imagine the following scenario:

Joe:  The IGKT recommends a figure 8 loop with a round turn for a hitch.

Bob:  They sound official, let's give it a try.  I assume the round turn is for holding some tension.

Joe:  But we have to tie a figure 8 knot first, then we can hold some tension with the round turn.

Bob:  Ok, I've made the figure 8, I'm holding some tension with the round turn, but I'm having a little trouble rethreading the figure 8 as it has collapsed under the tension.

(10 minutes later)

Bob:  Arrggh.  The IGKT doesn't know what it's talking about. 

Joe:  Well, maybe we can try it in a application where we can keep things loose while tying.

Bob:  hmmm.  OK.  ...Gosh, it sure uses a lot of rope.

(after use).

Bob:  Hey, I can't get this thing untied!

Joe:  #%^@-ing IGKT!
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on December 08, 2008, 09:57:15 PM
So now we are ONLY talking about hitches that can be tied under tension rather than hitches that are tied to later reliably take tension ??

OK, for that subset of hitches (tension tied) the figure 8 with a round turn is a nonsense, but then so also are many other recognised and valuable hitches.  In this subset you obviously need to make hold of the tension first using some form of wrap or turns and then you are into the variants of the tensionless and 'tension reduced' means of fastening the end or providing the residual tension after friction has eaten away most of it.

I hitch my climbing rope to my harness with a fig 8 rethreaded loop.  I don't care if it binds, I really do not intend to put it under tension, but if I fall, I am not going to worry that I will have a job breaking it back open.  But perhaps most importantly, I am tying it when there is no line tension, at least until I dress and set the knot before climbing.

Would you have any other guesses what conversation might have ensued for hitches clearly intended to be tied without being under tension?

Bob and Joe are a clever pair of numbnuts aren't they !!

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on December 08, 2008, 10:23:13 PM
I have just been granted the 'honour' of introducing a small group of 35 Cub Scouts (8yo to 11yo) to the world of knots and cord.

They don't have to know any particular set of knots, so although I will quickly show them the knots they will need to learn when they go up from Cub Scouts, but I won't be spending time teaching them these.

Instead, I will be showing them some uses for cord and rope based on a tiny set of knots which are very easy to tie and hopefully even easier to remember.

First, I will show them the power of friction and how I can hold and lower any one of them using only my pinkey finger (multiple round turns), then I will get them to hold and lower their Leader the same way.

Then I will show them how to braid a wrist band using only one strand, decorating it as they go, and finish it with interlocking OH knots to let them open it to slide on and then close it to keep it in place.  We will go through how to make a better fixing with the double OH knot (Strangle) and finish up with a challenge to make a band which best stands for Cub Scouts (judging this for themselves).

Keeping with the Overhand knot I will show them how to join two cords with the OH and the slipped OH, then how to join two cords of different size with two double Overhands (Fishermans).  Moving on we will tie up parcels using a slipped Oh variant of the parcel knot and then move on to make a loop, a double loop and an in-line treble loop all based on the OH.  Having made an inline treble OH loop we will use it to tie a load down really tight or tension a tent pole using the leverage of the Z hitch.  Having put some load on the OH loop, I will then show them where its 'hinge' is in order to undo it with ease.  If any of them show interest in wanting to learn the B&Q knot because it is a good knot and great to untie, then we might touch on it.

Having started on the theme of force, I will show them how to get a good hold on a rope using the Marlinspike hitch (the slipped OH again).  We will see how many it takes to drag  the Leader sitting on a board just using hands holding a rope, then how many can do it with MS hitch handles.  Then just for fun, I will show them the log winch so they can see how to use rope as a lever and be able to see how they can drag not only their Leader, but several Cub Scouts on the board all at the same time.

Then finally I will show them two 'gripping' knots.  The first will be the ultra easy KC hitch in case they need to get a hold onto a slippy pole or bar, and then the terrible Constrictor, sooper easy and sooper holdie, but be careful, because this knot does not have a hinge, so it won't undo easily.  As a treat, I will show them how the Constrictor turns in a tug into the Myrtle loop or hitch, and we will have a challenge to think of uses at home and in the garden for these knots and where they might be useful in Summer camp.

After this, it will be time to cover some warnings - how knots make cord weak (break string in my hands) how knots can change like the Constrictor but in a bad way - the Reef and the trick Whatknot, and perhaps a magic knot trick

I would like to give them some more challenges - anyone have any ideas?

Derek

Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on December 08, 2008, 11:44:38 PM
So now we are ONLY talking about hitches that can be tied under tension rather than hitches that are tied to later reliably take tension ??
Nope.  Read Bob and Joe's whole conversation.

Quote
I hitch my climbing rope to my harness with a fig 8 rethreaded loop.  I don't care if it binds,
You mean you don't care if it jams.  You also mean that you don't care much.  I doubt you enjoy trying to untie jammed knots.  Even you don't use the round turn with it.  Does anyone? 

Anyway, if you are recommending a small set of knots for a wide range of use, it doesn't make sense to recommend a jam-prone knot.  I compliment C. Ashley for being keenly aware of this in his book, as he'd make note of such problems and even made up an icon in warning.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 09, 2008, 07:18:03 AM
So now we are ONLY talking about hitches that can be tied under tension rather than hitches that are tied to later reliably take tension ??
Nope.  Read Bob and Joe's whole conversation.

Painful & pointless as it was, I did.  (The bit about "hitch" played no role, really.)
Keep in mind that a sizable portion, perhaps majority, of the rockclimbing world uses
the Fig.8 eyeknot for tying in, and they take occasionally rather hard falls on it;
they do--variously--whine or wince about untying it, but it remains a favored knot.

 :-\
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on December 09, 2008, 04:24:08 PM
quote]

Keep in mind that a sizable portion, perhaps majority, of the rockclimbing world uses
the Fig.8 eyeknot for tying in, and they take occasionally rather hard falls on it;
they do--variously--whine or wince about untying it, but it remains a favored knot.

 :-\

I understand.  It's a standard among a group of users that don't usually put much strain on their knots compared to most other users, so it's somewhat understandable.  Even among many of that subset of users, it's a love-hate relationship at best, as they at least get a flavor of it's jam proneness... as you note. 

Once again, none of them use it with a round turn as a "hitch".  Such usage makes the Surrey Six creator(s) look particularly out of touch.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 09, 2008, 09:45:03 PM
Once again, none of them use it with a round turn as a "hitch".  Such usage makes the Surrey Six creator(s) look particularly out of touch.

Why do you keep bringing this up?  I explained this "hitch" term above; you (& I) might not
use it that way ("tying to something--directly or with eyeknot"), but it has been in some places,
where--again--the point seems to be the emphasis is on the tying.  But you can query Howard
about the classification; maybe the Surrey group will adjust their presentation.
If you want them to be in touch, as Ma Bell used to say, reach out and touch  them.
It's a two-way street.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on December 09, 2008, 10:21:54 PM
Once again, none of them use it with a round turn as a "hitch".  Such usage makes the Surrey Six creator(s) look particularly out of touch.

Why do you keep bringing this up? 

Setting aside the terminology issue for a second, what is the point of the round turn used with a Figure 8 Loop?  If there is a point, it seems to be lost to everyone, as nobody uses the Figure 8 Loop with a round turn.

It's my assertion that it's likely a mere affectation to make the "hitch" misnomer look more plausible.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: squarerigger on December 10, 2008, 01:02:52 AM
Gentlemen,

I would greatly appreciate your taking this discussion to a different new post as it seems to have drifted off the original topic.  Maybe something along the lines of hitches Vs round turn?  This looks like developing into a seminal question being answered.  Just a thought... :)

SR as Moderator
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on December 11, 2008, 05:20:32 PM
A real angle in what would be the top 10 greatest hits; would be if they were at the same time an introduction into lacing knots, or as end of journey recommendation in their own.  Along with some of the other factors, like age, applications covered, general line and hardware assumed and perhaps environment (icy seas vs. southern farm etc.) etc.  i still think a 'recipe' for knots to de-scribe them and their mechanical properties could help learn and understand them better and quicker. 

Modified Animator, 4 knot menu (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/knots/animator/animateKnot_main_241.swf)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 14, 2008, 08:38:53 PM
A real angle in what would be the top 10 greatest hits ...

Hmmm, put in this  way, think of how such lists are compiled otherwise:  by a(n objective) counting!

I started then aborted putting up a post here with my assessments of what various user-groups actually
use.  Arborists, e.g., have I think greater dependence upon friction hitches of the sort that grip & release.
Rockclimbers are more likely to use a device for ascending a rope, and possibly re-use the device in
a gear-hauling mechanism; cavers, also!?  Commercial fishermen for the most part don't use friction
hitches; where they theoretically might, in joining snoods to longlines, they can get away with some
regular hitch, whose positioning is secured along the line by tucking the end (sometimes SPart)
through the lay.  (And although I even have photos of the Rolling Hitch being used on high-riser
buoys, those knots are (further) secured to the relatively thin pole-object with a fine line lashing
(and that might be bound w/electrical tape, to boot).)

So, "Top <x> Most Useful" look over to "Top <x> Most USED"!?

The Bowline will make appearances in climbing & boating; the Overhand eyeknot will be in ComFishK.
and sometimes in climbing, and boating.  The Clove H. is much in ComFishK and in rockclimbing,
and boating (but with notable variation in detail; more likely a ring hitch in rockclimbing and a
pile hitch in boating; ComFishK will secure the tail).

 :)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on November 09, 2009, 12:01:36 PM
snip...
5. Constrictor hitch,


Really ?

The Constrictor is a GREAT binding knot when set by itself with no loading to either of its ends, but as a hitch ?  Surely that is just asking for trouble ?

If a Constrictor is loaded in any way other than by opposing pulls, then it is prone to simply winding in the direction of that pull and can decompose into a very unstable form.

Does anyone else use the Constrictor as a hitch?

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on November 09, 2009, 03:35:42 PM
I was too lazy to reply to that list. Any list made by one person will be different from the list made by another, but I find the five point list a bit strange to say the least.

I haven't put a bend on the list yet, but there are a few bends I do use sometimes.

So the first bend isn't even among my ten most used ones. But of course I tie my shoelaces as most people do, with a slipped square knot.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on November 11, 2009, 10:47:03 PM
Harkening to Knots in the Wild thread, one could address
"Ten Most Used Knots[/i]" and see what that turned up.

I don't agree so much with Inkanyezi's lament at diversity (each will have
different Top Tens):  I think that a survey conducted of actual rope
users --as contrast with (arm chair) "knot tyers"-- will show clumpings
of knots befitting those users' applications.  For one thing, not all so
many rope users even know (much) more than ten knots (!);
sometimes, what they use that might be seen as different knotted
structures can be seen as combinations of just a few fundamental items.
E.g., the Clove Hitch, and in more fundamental structural terms, Half-hitch
sequences, is much used in the commercial fishing knotting that I've seen
-- both with my own presence and via others' images (notably Nautile's
photo surveys of Brittany, France).  I have never seen a book or on-site
source depict what I call a "Reverse Groundline Hitch", which is tied as
a back'n'forth series of Half-hitches in line typically spiral-binding some
ropes or netting or one to the other.

And re such surveying usage 'tis why I lament at the IGKT's knot tyer's
gathering in the midst of much active knotting (New Bedford & Seattle
fishermen) but turning inward to see only decorative work and museum
artifacts (whose authenticity can be doubted, even).  Thankfully, we have
DFred's exploration of New Bedord's knotting wilds to look forward to.
(On my part, I've been remiss in not agressively pursuing contact with
two commercial fishers I'd had good communications w/in Cape May,
but on happenstance basis.  For one of those, at least, I know his name
and I think he's pretty easily findable.)

 - - - - - -

When I select produce at the market, I often place selections into a plastic
bag which I don't tie off with any of the knots I've seen recently posted;
I shop regularly, such is my fondness for eating -- several times daily.   ;D
The knot I tie off the bag with usually the Overhand, sometimes slipped.
It's an interesting dual-class knot:  held in hand, it might serve qua stopper,
opposed to my grip; but put into a larger bag and generally left to hold
the bag closed against escape-minded produce (pears, say, which naturally
resist being grouped in odd numbers), it serves I suppose qua bend
-- i.e., like the Offset Ring Bend (aka "EDK"), in unusual medium to be
thinking of that!

 ;)




Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: backpacker on November 12, 2009, 04:29:41 AM
I am afraid I am too late to help the topic starter, but still...

First of all, before any knotwork is started, a pupil must know how to store a rope neatly. Therefore, the Number One knot to learn is an alpine coil.
Now, I am neither a climber nor a sailor, just a humble backpacker. Storing food is a life essential for us, and that requires hanging it over a 20-or-more-feet-high tree branch, which in turn calls for some serious thickening of a rope end. My choice is a monkey fist. I confess I do tie it over a stone, which may be not appropriate for young boys to know. Nevertheless, some thickening knot is a must.
Next important camping activity is setting a tight rope between two trunks. That calls for a mooring hitch at one and a tautline at another. Tautline is also helpful for setting up an old-fashioned tent. They say that an adjustable grip works better - but not for me.
A backpacker also need some kind of loop; any good loop works, be it a bowline, a butterfly or an eight. I do not have personal preferences; they are equally beautiful and all do the job. Disclaimer: backpacker's life is not at the stake. Let's say, a butterfly it is.
As for bends, I do not remember when did I use a bend last time. I do though remember that is was a butterfly. For the sake of diversity (which is not necessarily good), I'd also teach a zeppelin.

Well, it makes it six, if I count right. The other four would be a constrictor (one with two and a half coils), a versatackle, and one for which I don't know an English name (see a Russian description (http://www.katamaran.ru/knot/k86.htm) - with pictures)

And, of course, a bowline.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: squarerigger on November 12, 2009, 06:18:12 AM
marlinespike hitch

SR
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on November 12, 2009, 06:54:46 AM
marlinespike hitch
SR

Thanks, by which he --not wasting words!-- means:  "Backpacker, the Russian
knot you did not know the name for is called 'marlinespike hitch', in English.
And thanks for posting, welcome to the IGKT forum!".

 :)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: backpacker on November 12, 2009, 08:23:38 AM
marlinespike hitch
SR

Thanks, by which he --not wasting words!-- means:  "Backpacker, the Russian
knot you did not know the name for is called 'marlinespike hitch', in English.

Understood.

Quote
And thanks for posting, welcome to the IGKT forum!".

 :)

Thank you.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: backpacker on November 12, 2009, 08:36:49 AM
This forum doesn't let you edit your own posts.
That said, I have to add that this resource (http://www.katamaran.ru/knot/k.htm) might be interesting. Not knowing Russian matters not. Just follow links and enjoy pictures.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: DerekSmith on November 12, 2009, 06:25:51 PM
Backpacker,

Babel helped but

"As the Russian people proverb cannot better approaches to it: " Knot is not great, yes is strong [zatyanut]". This unit, however one by another spoils rope, since it strongly bends it."

As proverbs go, that one goes right over my head.  Any clues?

Oh, and welcome.

Derek
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: backpacker on November 12, 2009, 07:05:59 PM
Backpacker,

Babel helped but

"As the Russian people proverb cannot better approaches to it: " Knot is not great, yes is strong [zatyanut]". This unit, however one by another spoils rope, since it strongly bends it."

As proverbs go, that one goes right over my head.  Any clues?

Oh, and welcome.

Derek

Got it: не велик узелок, да затянут крепко. The whole thing translates rather as:
This knot in a best possible way illustrates the Russian proverb "the knot is small yet tied strongly". This knot, however damages the rope like no other knot can, since it bend it too much.

The proverbial meaning is that a little thing may have a great value. Or, that a seemingly simple situation may be very hard to resolve.

PS: Babel is really confused.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: WebAdmin on November 13, 2009, 08:10:08 AM
Hi Backpacker,

Just for information: it isn't something I used very often, and since I got made webadmin I can't be sure of whether I'm doing it or my status is, but you should be able to use the modify button next to your posts to edit them.

Regards,

Glenys
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: admin on November 13, 2009, 11:21:30 AM
Just for information: it isn't something I used very often, and since I got made webadmin I can't be sure of whether I'm doing it or my status is, but you should be able to use the modify button next to your posts to edit them.

All registered forum users should be able to both modify and delete their own posts.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on April 30, 2010, 09:43:22 AM
The 10+ knots should be easy to tie (and remember), easy to untie if possible, reliable and versatile.
These 12 knots I use regularly and cover most situations I encounter (backpacking/camping, survival trips, some fishing while doing so, doing stuff in and around the house). And even if they might not be the best choice of knots for every situation, armed with these I am confident to have at least one who does the job satisfactorily. There are other knots I use (e.g. the Zeppelin Loop) but perhaps to difficult to remember for the target audience.

Loops
1. bowline (+yosemite finish for critical use)
> using the rapid (slip knot) method as it is fast and can be used to easily tie the water bowline and double knotted bowline by using two loops for the slip knot  (*)
>that way you get three for the price of one.

2. butterfly loop and bend
> using the hybrid method > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4 ,
which is also perfect for the butterfly bend by using the two ends as the middle section and they get two for the price of one

3. uniknot (sliding loop, fishing loop, bending fishing line)

Hitches:

4. Timberhitch
5. sailor's hitch
6. Adjustable Grip Hitch (camping etc.)

Bends:
7. Zeppelin bend, (think 69 > 6 goes on top of 9)
8. double overhand knot (> double fishermen's bend)
    butterfly bend
    uniknot

Fishing:
9. Palomar Loop
    Uniknot

Stopper:
10. figure 8
     Double overhand knot

Other:
11. Klemheist
(for climbing up ropes, lamp posts, other uses such us pulling a stuck pole out of the ground etc.)

Binders:
12. Constrictor
    (via the clove hitch and how to use the clove hitch for a buntline hitch, which gets them three for the price of one)
     Double overhand knot
in addition:
> the principle of tying slipped versions of knots
> the principle of securing a hitch with half hitches
> how to bend ropes using a standing loop (bowline),
> how to use the bowline as a running loop. (for traps, lasso etc.)
> how to use bowline and or butterfly for a versatackle
> how to do the trucker's hitch using loops and hitches.
> how to use the double overhand knot for a sliding loop and a hitch
> how to tie the HFP Slippery 8 based on the figure 8
> how to turn the figure 8 loop into the karash double loop
> other uses of the above learned knots I can't think of right now

I realize that these are more then 10 in total. But my point is that with only learning some knots and how to use them for different purposes and how to combine them (the trucker's hitch e.g. for me is not a knot in its own right, but just a combination of knots for a specific purpose), you get a lot more then the sum of its parts.
Best example is the figure 8. When you learned the figure 8, you can use it as a stopper, a barrel sling or apply it to a bight and you have the figure 8 loop. If you know the clove hitch, you can tie the constrictor, the buntline hitch (clove around standing part) once you are shown how.
The hard part is to memorize the different names for all these.

(*)
bowline: form a loop, pull the line up through the loop (to form a bight), push the end through the bight (from the front> dutch marine bowline, from the back> right handed bowline)> tension on the line creates the bowline.
waterbowline: form a loop, form another loop, put the first loop on top of the second loop, pull the line up through the loops (to form a bight), push the end through the bight > tension on the line creates the waterbowline.
double knotted bowline: form a loop, form another loop, put the second loop on top of the first loop, pull the line up through the loops (to form a bight), push the end through the bight > tension on the line creates the double knotted bowline.

Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Andy on May 10, 2010, 04:58:49 AM
Hi Transminator,

Thank you for sharing your list!
I really enjoy seeing a collection like this that someone has put a lot of thought into.
Didn't know that "hybrid method" to tie a Butterfly, much appreciated that link to a video.
Still trying to get my head around the "slipped knot" bowline method, I'm awful with written instructions. :) Will go take a look in ABOK, maybe it's there...

Wishing you a fun day,

Andy
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on May 10, 2010, 09:40:30 AM
Hi Transminator,

Thank you for sharing your list!
I really enjoy seeing a collection like this that someone has put a lot of thought into.
Didn't know that "hybrid method" to tie a Butterfly, much appreciated that link to a video.
Still trying to get my head around the "slipped knot" bowline method, I'm awful with written instructions. :) Will go take a look in ABOK, maybe it's there...

Wishing you a fun day,

Andy


Hi Andy

Thanks for the comments.

Have a look at Mike Karash's video on the Karash Double Loop on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EyfYyJkZss
At around 2:00 he shows the slip knot method. (*)

Then I wondered if you could use this technique for a simpler method of tying the water bowline and double-knotted bowline (as I find the conventional method awkward and error prone) and it works perfectly!
If you create two loops at the start (for the slip knot), you find an easy way of tying the water bowline and the double-knotted bowline, depending on which loop you put in front of the other.

Here it goes:
> as in the video, form a loop.(**) hold the loop in place with your right thumb and index finger and form another loop right behind it (further left on the rope) with the same movement as for the first one (so that they have the same orientation > see image below).
you should now have the end to your right, the right hand should hold the first loop between thumb and index finger, the left should hold the second loop between thumb and index finger.

Then: (for the water bowline)
1. first loop stays in front (on top of) the second one> pull the line up through both of the loops to form a bight, put the end through the bight and tension on the line creates the water bowline (by pulling the bight back through the loops together with the end (as a bight))

or (for the double-knotted bowline)
2. put the second loop in front of (on top of) the first one and proceed as above and you end up with the double-knotted bowline.

Just try it a few times and I am sure you get the hang of it very quickly.
Once mastered, it only takes a few seconds to tie either one of them (single bowline with end inside or outside the loop, water bowline, double-knotted bowline).

Hope this makes it clear (sounds more difficult then it is)
Good Luck

Greetings from a German in Dublin (Ireland)

(*)
You can see he puts the end through the bight from the front, which creates the bowline with the end outside the loop (dutch marine bowline)
If you pass the end through the bight from the back, you end up with the end inside the bowline.

(**)
I do the loops like this:
the end of the rope is on your right
1. put the two first fingers of you left hand under the rope and then bend the fingers back over the rope
2. turn your left hand clockwise. Your fingers should then point downwards and be in the middle of the loop you thus created.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Andy on May 10, 2010, 09:46:17 PM

Hi Transminator,

Greetings from Australia. Hope you're enjoying the first days of spring there.

Thank you for your amazingly helpful and detailed message  :)

Leaving on a weeklong camping trip this morning, but looking forward to STUDY your message and attached material when I return!

Wishing you a fun day,

Andy
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Andy on May 10, 2010, 09:51:53 PM
p.s.: your explanations are quite clear and I will try them on the road! For the plain bowline, cannot download the video until I get back, but so far I have only managed to get a "fake" bowline with the working end going toward the loop (correct) but outside that loop (incorrect). Cheers, Andy
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Andy on May 13, 2010, 01:29:48 AM
Hi Transminator,

Greetings from my tent in Crowdy Bay  National Park... I can see a few kangaroos grazing a few meters away... Strange what mobile internet can do for you!

Writing to say THANK YOU for introducing me to this fast method to tie a bowline. It works beautifully. At first I had been trying at the right end of the rope, and, because of the ''natural" orientation of the rope when I tie a slip knot, it did not produce the right shape. When I use the left side of the rope, it is perfect.

For the double knotted bowline, here too, it works fantastic. Not sure if I fully understand the instructions: Are you making the second loop further on the line? If you make the second loop straight on top of the first (in one motion), then the slip knot through the two loops, it is amazingly fast. Perhaps this is what you meant. In any case, hugely grateful to have been introduced these techniques.

Wishing you a beautiful day in Dublin,

Smiles,

Andy
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on May 17, 2010, 03:49:52 PM
Greetings from my tent in Crowdy Bay  National Park... I can see a few kangaroos grazing a few meters away...!

Hi Andy
Sounds like your having a great time.

Writing to say THANK YOU for introducing me to this fast method to tie a bowline. 

No worries, mate  ;)

It works beautifully. At first I had been trying at the right end of the rope, and, because of the ''natural" orientation of the rope when I tie a slip knot, it did not produce the right shape. When I use the left side of the rope, it is perfect. For the double knotted bowline, here too, it works fantastic.
Not sure if I fully understand the instructions: Are you making the second loop further on the line?

exactly. then you have two choices. you put the first loop on top of the second one or vice versa and then you tie the slip knot through both loops. One will be a water bowline, the other results in a double knotted bowline. (btw. in one case the two loops form a clove hitch, in the other they don't)
But never mind the instructions. It sounds like you got it.

I am hoping to find an easier (revolutionary  ;D ) tying method for one of my favorites the Rosendahl (Zeppelin) Loop, but I am now getting more and more into decorative knotting, especially key fobs and lanyards using turks heads, pineapple knots, matthew walkers and what (k)not. But I am just at the start of the journey progressing from the basics.

Sunny greetings
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on May 28, 2010, 07:02:58 PM
EDIT: I reduced my list down to 10 to play by the rules.

My favorite knots are also in this thread: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1835.0

Here's my list of best knots for the "average" person, NOT in order of importance:

Binding:
1. Square (everybody should know how to tie this knot correctly)

Loop on End:
2. Zeppelin Loop (strong, secure, has never jammed on me)
3. Bowline/Double Bowline (learn all the different ways to tie and you can rest assured that you'll have a decent fixed loop for anything)

Loop on Bight:
4. Butterfly Loop (1, 2 and 3 loops - simple, secure, doesn't jam easily)

Hitch:
5. Buntline Slipped (it just works)
6. Adjustable Grip+ (an enhanced version that I discuss in another thread)
7. Half Hitch Slipped (simple, quick, temporary, secure enough for many purposes, perhaps my most used knot)
--"Trucker's" Hitch (a combination of three knots, for example, Buntline Slipped, Stevedore Slip Loop and Half Hitch Slipped)

Bend:
8. Zeppelin Bend (strong, surprisingly secure, has not jammed on me)
9. Butterfly Bend (simple, secure, has not jammed on me, my regular knot for neck lanyards)
--Zeppelin Loops connected (not a bend, but connects ropes of ANY size difference)

Stopper:
10. Stevedore (simple enough, non-jamming)

=====

I just realized that knowing how to use these knots is more important than the knots themselves.  For example, knowing how to tie a good Trucker's Hitch is more important than the actual knots used within the Trucker's Hitch.

I like using knots that won't jam too easily and are relatively strong and secure.  I generally assume that people are using rope that they would like to reuse.  I don't want to frustrate a new guy by forcing the person to cut rope.  Plus, I'm sure most people already know how to tie knots that jam up and that force you to cut the rope.  If someone is asking for knot advice, then I'll give them my best stuff, and they can take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: jcsampson on May 28, 2010, 11:29:30 PM
Here is my list of nine basic favorites:

- Overhand Knot (used mainly to tie bread and produce bags closed--a very important activity)
- Reef-Knot Bow (used only to tie shoes and sweat pants)
- Figure-Eight Stopper
- Bowstring Loop (a.k.a. Honda Knot)
- The Fixed-Gripper Knot ([formerly called the Derived Hitch] using multiple constructs)
- Cow Hitch (using three varieties, but only in the contexts of loops and circular lines)
- Bowline (using three varieties)
- Butterfly Loop
- Double Harness Bend with Parallel Ends (ABOK #1421)

However, I will also allow any knot that is a subset or minor variation of a knot in this personal library, or a construct that utilizes these knots, such as Two Half Hitches, Round Turn and Two Half Hitches, Trucker's Hitch, Figure-Eight Loop, Double Figure-Eight Loop, Double Butterfly Loop, Chain Sinnet, etc.

See

http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1839.msg12439#msg12439

for an explanation of the Fixed-Gripper Knot.

Discussion of the Double Harness Bend with Parallel Ends (ABOK #1421)

This bend is strong, secure, efficient (i.e., uses little cord), symmetrical, easy to untie (though, apparently, Ashley was unaware of how to untie it easily), has tails coming out of the same side, can be made stopper-flush, is quick and easy to make, and is attractive and conveniently sized. In the tests I've conducted, using waxed dental floss, it did not slip after repeating more than 100 hard tugs, while four of the popular bends did. It is untied easily by placing a thumb (or a thumbnail, if the cord is thin) in the middle of the knot's SIDE and using the thumb as a pivot over which the knot can be bent. Bending the knot in this way quickly and easily loosens it for untying. If the tails of #1421 are reverse twisted, the knot's top will take on a slightly different appearance, and the knot will be as secure as the popular bends tested; make the knot as in the diagram, however, and the knot will be MORE secure than the popular bends tested (which were Hunter's Bend, Butterfly Bend, Ashley Bend, and Zeppelin Bend).

When making this bend, I think, "With the right line running above the left line; right goes over, under, under, and in between; left goes over, under, under, and in between." When the knot has been made and tightened correctly, the top of it shows a type of letter-Z shape.

JCS
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 29, 2010, 04:31:44 AM
- Overhand Knot (used mainly to tie bread and produce bags closed--a very important activity)

I was just about to post this point -- in questioning how some of these
"most useful" knots ever actually are used.  Mundane things such as
tying ones shoes or this bag-closing operation tend to be "most..."
in frequency but find no respect in the lists of "useful" knots.
(Interesting question is how to classify this bag-closing knot:
gripping the bag in hand makes it a stopper, but when the
bag's lying with e.g. apples wanting to roll in many directions,
it's more of a joining knot --but joining what, not "ends"?!)

> - Bowstring Loop (a.k.a. Honda Knot)

NB, a bowlinesque "around the tree and back into the hole"
finish makes for a nice knot.

(-;
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on May 31, 2010, 10:15:33 AM
Siberian, aka, Evenk (this sucker is just fun to tie, easy to untie and just works)

Why the heck have I not come across the Evenk before?
Played around with it at the weekend> love it!
This goes on my list and may well be replacing the slipped buntline for me as it is tied in a jiffy and seems to be secure.
(after my first, tentative evaluation with different types of rope)

Adjustable Grip (better than tautline)

I agree. And I found it is good in combination with the Siberian for putting up a tarp or hammock.

Zeppelin (strong, secure, has never jammed on me)
Bowline/Double Bowline (learn all the different ways to tie and you can rest assured that you'll have a decent fixed loop for anything)

Two of my favs too. I use the Zeppelin (Loop and Bend) most of the time and revert to the  bowline(s) if it needs to go fast. I did not put it in my list, because I thought it is, compared to the bowline, a bit tricky to tie and remember for a person who does not play around with rope as much. But I am starting to think that it might be worth the effort even for a beginner. Once you tied it a few times, it sticks and it has the merrits of security (without any extra tucks etc.) and easy adjustability. And it does not jam.

Anyway.
I learned the Siberian/Evenk knot.
Thanks for sharing the list
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on June 22, 2010, 09:59:17 AM
Regarding the Zeppelin Loop and tying methods there is a new thread
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1872.0
which presents options for tying it, which might help to get the Zeppelin Loop into the top ten list of knots.

Have a look at my video on youtube. I personally find this way of tying it very easy and memorable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9HRegcP9NU

Regarding the quick/rapid way of tying the water bowline and double (knotted) bowline,
I posted these you tube videos to demonstrate:

water bowline: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTyJgvmuwSo
double bowline: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QTkVWLX4sE

And finally the butterfly loop and bend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBNtlHFNKw
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Andy on June 22, 2010, 10:11:15 AM
@Transminator,

Cool, I'll check your videos!

A couple days ago I added a rapid bowline pictorial to my page of ways of tying a bowline (http://asiteaboutnothing.net/cr_bowline-methods.html?).

Love it!
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 06:03:27 AM
VI. Clove Hitch (which is getting #4 to gang up in a particular way; do we count "Two HH.s" as a Clove Noose?!)

I don't find the clove hitch to be all that useful compared to other similar hitches.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on June 24, 2010, 09:09:16 AM
I don't find the clove hitch to be all that useful compared to other similar hitches.

It is useful as the basis for other knots that evolve out of the clove or use it as part of themselves
Examples:
1. The constrictor knot is just a clove hitch with an extra tuck (followed by the double constrictor, the boa knot etc.)
2. The Buntline Hitch is a clove hitch around the standing part
3. The locking turns in the water bowline are a clove hitch.
etc.

Its a bit like saying: the overhand knot is not all that useful.
For most cases it isn't, but so many knots can be tied or are tied starting with an overhand knot
(the zeppelin loop e.g.)

Those simple knots (overhand knot, clove hitch etc.) are the 101 of knotting and therefore have their place
One starts from the simple forms and progresses to the more complex. 
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 03:18:28 PM
I posted these you tube videos to demonstrate:

water bowline: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTyJgvmuwSo
One of the problems with starting with a clove hitch, is that it's very easy to get the wrong version of the water bowline.

I might watch the other videos later.  So sloooow.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on June 24, 2010, 04:41:51 PM

And finally the butterfly loop and bend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBNtlHFNKw

I prefer the twist method to the so-called hybrid method for the loop.  The hybrid method is not very memorable, and if you reach around the wrong rope (an easy error) you get a knot that looks like butterfly loop but is very much inferior to a butterfly loop :o.  This would be a less serious issue if the mistake weren't so similar in appearance to the butterfly loop, so it could be corrected before being accidentally used.

As far as the bend, I've always found the structure elementary enough not to need a developed method.  It could be just me.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on June 24, 2010, 05:15:20 PM
I don't find the clove hitch to be all that useful compared to other similar hitches.

It is useful as the basis for other knots that evolve out of the clove or use it as part of themselves
Examples:
1. The constrictor knot is just a clove hitch with an extra tuck (followed by the double constrictor, the boa knot etc.)
2. The Buntline Hitch is a clove hitch around the standing part
3. The locking turns in the water bowline are a clove hitch.
etc.

Its a bit like saying: the overhand knot is not all that useful.
For most cases it isn't, but so many knots can be tied or are tied starting with an overhand knot
(the zeppelin loop e.g.)

Those simple knots (overhand knot, clove hitch etc.) are the 101 of knotting and therefore have their place
One starts from the simple forms and progresses to the more complex.  

I agree with you there.  However, that concept is too abstract for a beginner who just wants your top ten best knots to go do stuff right now.  This is the "Practical Knots" forum, not the "Theory of Knots" forum.  In theory, you could put Overhand in your top ten, when you're really thinking Zeppelin Bend, right?

How does the average dude get to the Zeppelin Bend if you give him an overhand only?  He doesn't.

How does the average dude get to the Slipped Buntline if you give him a Clove Hitch only?  He doesn't.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: jcsampson on June 24, 2010, 11:53:55 PM
This post is an extension to one of Transminator's that gives examples of knots that contain the Clove Hitch.

Examples (continued):

4. The Fixed-Gripper Knot of the newly bestowed Fixed-Gripper Constructs

JCS
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on June 25, 2010, 09:41:28 AM
I posted these you tube videos to demonstrate:

water bowline: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTyJgvmuwSo
One of the problems with starting with a clove hitch, is that it's very easy to get the wrong version of the water bowline.

mmh, is there another one?
or do you mean the double bowline?

I myself find the methods I presented for tying the water and the double bowline less error prone though, but that could be me.
I always had trouble with the other methods, which I found less memorable and slow to tie.
But all my post are to be understood as just offers. Some people might find them useful, others don't.


I might watch the other videos later.  So sloooow.

Are you working with a dial up line?
Broadband for internet is just a delight. I don't want to be without it anymore.


And finally the butterfly loop and bend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwBNtlHFNKw

I prefer the twist method to the so-called hybrid method for the loop.  The hybrid method is not very memorable, and if you reach around the wrong rope (an easy error) you get a knot that looks like butterfly loop but is very much inferior to a butterfly loop :o.  This would be a less serious issue if the mistake weren't so similar in appearance to the butterfly loop, so it could be corrected before being accidentally used.

As far as the bend, I've always found the structure elementary enough not to need a developed method.  It could be just me.

I hear what you are saying.
I personally never had any problem of getting either the water bowline, double bowline or the butterfly knot wrong using the presented methods.
I just wanted to show how I tie them and some people out there might find them useful. Not everybody of course.
All my posts are considered to be offers only. I would not claim that these are the best methods.
They are merely the ones I chose for myself for various reasons.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: jsc on October 31, 2010, 08:38:17 AM
I had occasion to need to tie a knot recently, and wanted to find the "right" one. I found igkt, and a few days later I was sitting around tying and retying as many different knots as I could. I'd like to offer some thoughts from the viewpoint of someone new to knots. Apologies if this all seems old hat to the more experienced members. This is what I've determined after a short period of trying to sort out the menagery. I have not learned all the knots out there yet, just the most common ones that get a lot of discussion.

My first impression is that the advantage to many of the "classic" knots is that they are easy to remember and quick to tie, but that many of them are subsumed in their primary role by other, better knots. They are important to learn because they are often reused in other knots.

Bends:
Reef "bend" is universally maligned.
Sheet bend is said to be insecure, unless tied as the double sheet bend.
The interlocked overhand knots class of bends (Zeppelin, Hunter's, Ashley's, Alpine Butterfly) are well thought of, with most people preferring Zeppelin or Alpine Butterfly, the other two being more prone to jams. The Alpine Butterfly Bend has the advantage of having an easy "round the hand" method of forming it, while Zeppelin may be marginally more secure or harder to jam.
Carrick's bend is well thought of and compact, but may be easier to tie incorrectly and end up with something that is not a Carrick's bend, and cannot be easily determined to be incorrect by inspection. The Alpine Butterfly and Zeppelin bends both have distinct "looks" so you can tell if you did something wrong.

Hitches:
All the "classic" hitches (two half hitches, clove hitch, etc.) seem problematic as standalone hitches, with the possible exception of the slipped buntline when a compact hitch is desired.
The notableknotindex website advocates the Sailor's Hitch, which seems ideal for hitching to a large diameter round object, like a pole or a rope.
The Rolling, or Magnus, Hitch is quick and easy for lateral pulling, but comes in three variations. The Gripping Sailor's Hitch seems better in every other way.
The Taut-Line Hitch (also in three variations, as it uses the Rolling Hitch)  is an easy adjustable loop hitch, but subsumed by the Adjustable Grip Hitch.
The Trucker's "Hitch" seems useful, but seems more of a technique than an actual knot; the loop(s) used can be formed in any number of ways.

Loops in the Bight:
The Alpine Butterfly Loop is easy to tie and very popular. Figure eight in the bight is often used by climbers apparently, but it seems to me it takes up more rope and is more prone to jamming. I have seen an argument by cavers against the use of the Alpine Butterfly Loop when tied using the "two twists" method, as incorrectly forming the loops can create the False Butterfly, which is hazardous. The danger of mistying it in a more subtle fashion using the "hybrid" method is discussed immediately above in this thread.

End Loops:
Figure 8 as an end loop is widely used in climbing, easy to form unless you are tying the "rethreaded" version, jam prone.
Alpine Butterfly Loop is liked as an end loop. David Delaney's web site advocates the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop as slightly less jammable, which puts the working and standing parts in different parts of the loop than the standard Alpine Butterfly tied as an end loop.
The Zeppelin Loop is similar, perhaps marginally better. Both Alpine Butterfly Loops and the Zeppelin Loop require some practice to be able to tie quickly, but can generally be tied slowly if you forget how by starting with an overhand loop, staring at it, and remembering the structure of the knot.
There is, of course, the Bowline and its variants (Water, Double, etc.). Easy, compact, usually reliable. As an aside, I found that when practicing the "lightning method" of forming the bowline using a collapsing slip knot, you must take care to push the bight through the loop from the standing part, not the working part (or else you get an Eskimo, or Sideways, Bowline), and you must insert the working end through the bight in the proper directly (or else you end up with the Dutch Marine (Cowboy) Bowline). Both of these are described by various sources as being either less or more secure than the standard version. It is harder to get it wrong using the standard rabbit-hole-tree method.

In keeping with the subject of this thread, I'll count up the most "useful" of the knots above. I count as separate the "same" knot if they are tied using different methods, and technically different knots the same if they are or can be tied using substantially the same method.

1. Double Sheet Bend (an easy bend)
2. Carrick's Bend (near ideal bend)
3. Slipped Buntline Hitch (an easy hitch)
4. Zeppelin Bend using "b and q" method (easy to learn, near ideal bend)
5. Zeppellin Bend and Zeppelin Loop starting with overhand knot method (alternative technique necessary for the loop)
6. Alpine Butterfly Loop in the Bight, and Bend, tied round the hand (easy to learn, near ideal bight loop and bend)
7. Alpine Butterfly End Loop, or alternatively the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop as described by David Delaney, both tied starting with overhand knot (near ideal end loop)
8. Sailor's Hitch, and Gripping Sailor's Hitch (good round pole hitch, near ideal lateral hitch)
9. Adjustable Grip Hitch (good adjustable hitch)
10. Figure 8 as stopper, bight loop, end loop, bend (versatile and easy)

For me, all of the above is rather theoretical since the only time I ever tie a knot in something that is not a practice rope is to attach a kite string or hitch my dog to a post. I don't even tie shoelaces any more. Please let me know what you think.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on October 31, 2010, 06:08:36 PM
JSC,

Those are some good thoughts there.  I agree with 5 or 6 of your knots.

I'm curious as to why you have the redundancy.  For the Butterfly and the Zeppelin, I don't consider a different tying method to be a different knot.  I would list one knot plus all the tying methods in one slot.  Also, the Carrick's Bend is somewhat redundant because you listed 3 other bends that have highly desirable properties.  Also, the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing, while the other bends you mentioned do not.

You don't have a dedicated binding knot (e.g., Square).  A think a person's top ten should be able to satisfy substantially most rope tasks.  As a regular guy who doesn't tie knots for my job, I find myself tying a binding knot more than any other knot.  For example, I use a double slipped Square (aka, bow) to tie my shoes.

You don't have the Bowline Loop in your top ten.  For an end loop, the Zeppelin or the Butterfly is your preference I guess.  As far as I know, each requires a pre-knot.  That drawback can be problematic in many situations.  The Bowline and Double Bowline do not require pre-knots.

I like most of your knots for my top 10.  However, I don't have the Carrick's Bend, the Sailor's Hitch, the Gripping Sailor's Hitch or the Figure 8.  For the Carrick Bend, there are at least 3 other bends that I prefer (Zeppelin, Butterfly and Double Sheet).  Including the Carrick would be a waste of a slot for me.  For the Sailor's Hitch, there are at least 5 other similar hitches that I prefer.  For the Gripping Sailor's Hitch, there are about 5 other similar hitches that I prefer.  For the Figure 8 stopper, I find myself tying a Stevedore, an Ashley's or an Overhand instead.  I figure if I'm going to make extra turns past the Overhand, then I might as well go with a knot that doesn't jam on me (Stevedore).

Those are just my personal preferences.  Of course, your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: jsc on November 01, 2010, 12:49:41 AM
Hi, knot4u. Thanks for your feedback! I list the "same" knots separately when different forms (loop vs bend) either call for or require a different way of tying the knot. I realize this isn't technically accurate, but from the point of view of someone learning knots, the overhand knot method of tying the Alpine Butterfly Loop on the end, or the Zeppelin Loop is so different from the usual method of tying the Alpine Butterfly Loop or Zeppelin Bend that it's nearly like learning two different knots, and you can't use the latter for the former (although of course you could just learn the first method and use it all the time). On the other hand, tying the Alpine Butterfly Bend around the hand is so similar to the Alpine Butterfly Loop that I would just lump them in together, as far as knot study goes.

Also, the Carrick's Bend is somewhat redundant because you listed 3 other bends that have highly desirable properties.  Also, the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing, while the other bends you mentioned do not.

I agree it's redundant. It just seems so good that I threw it in. You say it tends to capsize easily; what do you mean by that? I thought the compact form you get once you've created the "flat" figure and put it under load is actually fine, and expected, as in step 8 here: http://www.animatedknots.com/carrick/index.php

You don't have a dedicated binding knot (e.g., Square).  A think a person's top ten should be able to satisfy substantially most rope tasks.  As a regular guy who doesn't tie knots for my job, I find myself tying a binding knot more than any other knot.  For example, I use a double slipped Square (aka, bow) to tie my shoes.

True, and in fact, I never or extremely rarely expect to have to tie any of the knots I've learned so far. My list is, I guess, a list for some hypothetical version of me who climbs mountains or sails wooden ships, or otherwise works with rope. If it had been a list for my own practical use, it would have been filled with things like the reef knot, the overhand knot, the full and half windsor tie knots, a loose two half hitches for tying up the dog to a post, etc. In terms of practicality, manly me the trucker/sailor/arborist/caver has vastly different requirements than real life me which needs to close off the bread bag. I guess a separate list composed solely of "best of breed knots" for everyday tasks would also be an interesting exercise, as the information is scattered around on various "how to tie your tie" and "improved shoelace knots" sites. I found it interesting that the four-in-the-hand knot for tying your necktie is the same as the buntline hitch, which now makes it easier for me to remember.

What are some situations which prevent the use of a pre-knot? I'm curious.

Also, I'd be interested in hearing which hitches you prefer over Sailor's and Gripping Sailor's, so I can learn those too. I included Sailor's because it is so similar to the Gripping Sailor's, and I included that one because roo's site praised its virtues as a lateral pull knot.

Thanks for listing your preferred stoppers, I'll look into those. As I said, at this point all this is mostly an intellectual exercise, barring an unexpected turn of fate which has me hauling on lines on an 18th century frigate.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 01, 2010, 01:45:18 AM
JCS, people have their favorites and are reluctant to change, except if they make the change themselves.  I'm one of these people, and these are just my highly opinionated thoughts...  :)

I understand your thought process about these being fantasy man knots, but I still think you should work at least one binding knot in there somewhere!  Also, what's wrong with having the Overhand or Windsor in your top ten?  Your reasoning made sense to me, and I can respect your perspective.  The main reason I don't have the Overhand in my top ten is because I put the Half Hitch and the Square on my list, and so that fills my allotted quota for "everyday" knots.

The Sailor's Hitch is a decent knot, but I just don't have the love affair that some people have with it.  Before the Sailor's Hitch, I'm more likely to use a Groundline, a Snuggle, a Vibration-proof, a Boom, a Slipped Buntline, a Siberian, a Halter or a Pile.
  
Before I tie a Gripping Sailor's Hitch, I'm more likely to tie a Klemheist, a Gripping Half Hitch (new creation), an Icicle Cow (new creation) or others.  None of these hitches loosen up when I shake the standing end.  See here:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg13661#msg13661
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.msg13765#msg13765
The Klemheist may be inconvenient to tie in some situations, but I will make an effort because this knot outperforms most friction hitches in my experience. 


Some situations that make a pre-knot inconvenient include the following:
-Hauling or anchoring anything where the rope is already around the object (this happens to me a lot)
-Using one hand (a one-handed Bowline is easy, while a one-handed Zeppelin Loop is not easy, etc.)
-Making a loop where I don't have a clue where on the rope I want the dressing to be
-An end loop that I want to tie quickly on the fly
-An end loop where the standing end is loaded while tying (e.g., accidentally letting go before tying the Zeppelin Loop could mean a jammed Overhand knot)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on November 02, 2010, 12:44:03 AM
/.../ the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing /.../
Sorry to see that you have misunderstood that great knot so badly. Forgive me for going OT with this one.

A correctly dressed Carrick Bend cannot ever capsize. Its very dressing is capsizing its pattern by putting load on it, whereupon it takes its final form.
You can see how the Carrick Bend is tied simpler than most bends at my webpage: http://web.comhem.se/~u77479609/Carrick%20Bend.html (http://web.comhem.se/~u77479609/Carrick%20Bend.html)

This is what it looks like when finished, the desired dressing, from which it cannot capsize:
(http://web.comhem.se/~u77479609/Carrick%20Bend/carrick_8.gif)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 02, 2010, 02:54:25 AM
/.../ the Carrick's Bend tends to capsize easily into an undesirable dressing /.../
Sorry to see that you have misunderstood that great knot so badly. Forgive me for going OT with this one...

Thank you for the info.  I will test the Carrick Bend (again) and will do my best to make the Carrick stack up to other bends I prefer.  We'll see.

Just curious, did you make that webpage before studying the Zeppelin Bend?  You ignored the Zeppelin Bend but compared the Sheet Bend to the Carrick.  All due respect, but I'll have to say the Zeppelin Bend is the King of Bends.  I have tested the Zeppelin Bend in all kinds of cord, from thick rope to 10-lb test monofilament fishing line.  I have decided that I will use the Zeppelin Bend to join fishing line, instead of the traditional fishing knots available...no kidding.  The Zeppelin Bend just works.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: jsc on November 02, 2010, 03:07:53 AM
Hello, Inkanyezi. That's what I thought, regarding the loaded form of the Carrick's Bend. Your "standing part method" of tying it is awesome, and something I haven't seen anywhere else, did you come up with it?
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on November 02, 2010, 08:46:06 AM
No to the question about the Zeppelin, which I did know beforehand. However, I found it too difficult to do with stiff fingers or gloves in darkness, without the aid of vision. Any important knot used in sailing must be easily tied unaided by vision and when fingers are a bit stiff from cold or with gloves on. The Zeppelin can be tied with closed eyes, and with gloves as well, although it's slower and more difficult, It also needs a bit more dressing than the Carrick Bend. Darkness and stiff fingers makes it really awkward, compared to the "standing part" method of tying the Carrick Bend.

Yes, I came up with the method of tying it myself, with the deliberate intention to find a way of tying that could be done with thumb gloves in complete darkness. The sheet bends can be tied under the same conditions, but the Carrick Bend is swifter and more secure, as well as in my opinion the only one that can also be easily untied with mittens on.

With a soaked knot frozen, the Carrick Bend still can be untied without too much hassle.

So in essence, there are a couple of desirable features added; mainly being able to tie the knot without aid of vision and with numb fingers or gloves on, as well as ease of untying under similar conditions. I regard the knot amply secure in most kinds of cordage, particularly the types of cordage common on board.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on November 02, 2010, 05:00:04 PM
Hello Inkanyezi

I have to say I rather like your method of tying the carrick bend.
I always found it a bit awkward to tie (even though I use it regularly as the start of the knife lanyard knot e.g.) as a regular bend.

This places it right up there to accompany the zeppelin and the butterfly on my list of best bends.

Thanks
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 02, 2010, 08:16:35 PM
I spent some time tying the Carrick Bend using the method provided in the website above.  I won't be putting this bend above the Zeppelin, the Butterfly or the Double Sheet Bend.  The Carrick Bend remains, for me, harder to tie than the other bends I mentioned.  If I can become proficient with the Carrick Bend, then perhaps I'll put it above the Double Sheet Bend.  Anyway, when I do need a bend, it's highly unlikely that one of my top 3 won't suffice.  Also, my top 3 bends have never jammed on me, and they hold secure.  Meanwhile, I cannot personally vouch for the performance of the Carrick Bend.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: jsc on November 02, 2010, 09:38:52 PM
Has David Delaney's alternative Alpine Butterly Bend Loop been discussed here? http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html

I can't find any reference to it through the forum search. I thought it was an interesting variant on the "normal" way to tie the butterfly as an end loop. In the normally formed end loop, the loop ends up being formed just as in the Alpine Butterfly Loop in the bight, only near one end. The pull from the standing part comes at right angles to the loop, which is formed out of what would be the two short ends in the bend. In the Alpine Butterfly Bend Loop, the loop is tied with the bend in the same orientation as in the Zeppelin Loop, with the standing part ending up as what would be one of the standing parts of the Alpine Butterfly Bend and the loop being formed out of what would be the other standing part of the bend plus one of the short ends. If it's given that the bend is what makes the loop strong, I think this is a preferable end loop from the butterfly.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on November 02, 2010, 10:29:33 PM
Has David Delaney's alternative Alpine Butterly Bend Loop been discussed here? http://davidmdelaney.com/alpine-butterfly-loop/Alpine-butterfly-bend-loop.html

I can't find any reference to it through the forum search.

See this:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1878.msg12717#msg12717

The Butterfly Loop does not lend itself very well to use as an end loop. 
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on November 03, 2010, 08:20:57 AM
The Butterfly Loop does not lend itself very well to use as an end loop. 
Nor does the Zeppelin loop, or indeed any other loop based on two interlocked overhand knots!

I would agree, on similar grounds. Interlocked overhand knots always have to be undone in a more complicated way than those that don't have any overhand. However, for security, these knots could be commendable if they weren't so easily mistied or difficult to memorize.

/.../   Do you want an end of the line loop ? Tie one of the many secure forms of the bowline family of loops. Bowlines are the best loops there exist, no reason to go any further.

Bowlines sometimes are regarded as not sufficiently secure. That is why the Janus Bowline was invented.

We have once before been over a loop based on the Carrick Bend, the Wave Loop, which is easily tied with a method that resembles the bowline. It is more easily tied than many within the Bowline family, as the way of tying imprints its form in the movements; its choreography makes it as easy to tie as a bowline, but it is not only more secure, but also more easily untied.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=434.msg3568#msg3568


The method is also another fairly simple way of tying the Carrick Bend.

And no, I did not include it in my ten most useful knots, although it is a very secure and easily tied knot. Picking ten, when you know a hundred or so, is not such an easy task. For most purposes the Bowline indeed is sufficiently secure. Those other loops that are more secure are demanded mainly by mountaneers and the like; people who want more security and still want to easily undo the knot. I would prefer the Wave Loop, just because it does not include overhand knots, and is therefore not only more easily tied, but also more easily undone even though it is amply secure.

And that is why I would not consider the Zeppelin among my preferred knots, even though I have known it for a very long time. The bends and loops I use kan be tied blindly, while I find it difficult to tie a Zeppelin without looking, whether as a bend or a loop.

The Carrick family of interlocked backhand knots have a great advantage over most knots relying on interlocked overhands (the exception is the butterfly on a bight); there is only one tuck. Two interlocking overhands need two tucks. That is the reason why I would rather choose the Wave Loop than the Janus Bowline.  Also "following some part" implies reeving, and a decision must be made which part to follow and you need to see it. Knots that could be tied based on their choreography and do not need to rely on vision are easier to tie correctly in a consistent way, and that's why I prefer the Bowline, as well as Carrick and Sheet bends.

I never said that the Zeppelin would jam, I said it is not as easily untied as a Carrick Bend. The reason is that it has two tucks, while the Carrick has only one.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on November 03, 2010, 04:20:41 PM
The Butterfly Loop does not lend itself very well to use as an end loop.  
Nor does the Zeppelin loop, or indeed any other loop based on two interlocked overhand knots! (I am chanting here... :)) The use of an overhand knot right after the standing end, which has to be untied after the rest of the loop
   Do you want an end of the line loop ? Tie one of the many secure forms of the bowline family of loops. Bowlines are the best loops there exist, no reason to go any further.
The Zeppelin Loop has a few memorable methods of tying.  One of them is very similar to the way the corresponding bend is tied.  The Butterfly Loop does not have such a memorable method for tying around or through an object before closing.  The Zeppelin Loop is also more secure and more jam resistant.

Secondly, the Zeppelin Loop only requires three un-tucks to fully untie, while the simple yet not very secure Bowline requires two un-tucks.  Seems a worthwhile trade off to me (at least in some applications).  The Zeppelin Loop structure and its variants are more secure than the Bowline structure and its variants.

After your "Knots are Impractial" (paraphrasing) thread, where you admitted that you don't really use knots, I'm surprised that you keep posting in the Practical Knots forum.

Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on November 03, 2010, 04:33:51 PM

We have once before been over a loop based on the Carrick Bend, the Wave Loop, which is easily tied with a method that resembles the bowline. It is more easily tied than many within the Bowline family, as the way of tying imprints its form in the movements; its choreography makes it as easy to tie as a bowline, but it is not only more secure, but also more easily untied.

I stopped using the (Double) Carrick Bend many years ago after seeing that quite a few more compact bends were significantly more secure than the (Double) Carrick Bend.  Another reason to avoid it is that if you make the wrong version, the security drops from mediocre to horrible.

In a loop form the Carrick structure performs worse, as those inferior forms show their face via the various loading that can show up in a loop structure. 

General Loading Examples:

*Standing Part Loaded & Both Legs Loaded.

*Standing Part Loaded & One Leg Mostly Loaded (as during swinging on a rough surface).

*Standing Part Unloaded & Legs Loaded (as when something tries to expand the loop).

*Free End Snagged & Any of the Previously Noted Conditions.

*Free End Snagged & Only Standing Part Loaded.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Transminator on November 03, 2010, 05:14:40 PM
For me, the Zeppelin and the butterfly bend remain the royal couple of bends (with zeppelin the king and butterfly its queen)
Using the hybrid method, I can easily tie the butterfly in the dark, but have not tried with gloves or numb fingers. I will give it a go if I ever happen to get into that sort of situation and think it wont be a problem. 
In case I do need to tie a bend in the dark (and with gloves and with numb fingers and with wet rope) and do not manage to bend ropes with either one, I can still fall back on the inkanyezi method of tying the carrick bend or simply bend the ropes with two interlocked bowlines e.g.

The zeppelin as a loop is an excellent knot for the simple reasons of security (no safety finish required), ease of tying and untying.
The simple bowline is a good all-round fixed loop with adequate security for most non-critical tasks. If the application is critical, the zeppelin loop is a candidate together with the yosemite bowline and the good old figure 8.

Interlocked overhand knots always have to be undone in a more complicated way than those that don't have any overhand.

Both the zeppelin and the butterfly are easily untied. The former exceptionally so (even after high load).
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 03, 2010, 07:11:40 PM
Regarding the Butterfly Bend, wearing gloves while using the hybrid method is super easy (easier than Carrick Bend).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeKLU_6NLv4
That's the loop, but modify that for the bend.  It's so easy that it's not even fair.

Regarding the Yosemite Bowline, I have read (not based on my experience) that a Yosemite finish does not add security to a Bowline.  Again, that's what I read, not my experience.

Anyway, for the last couple of days, I have been trying my best to make the Carrick Bend one of my favorites.  It's just not there.  However, I will say this:  when tying neck lanyards out of 550 paracord, I do now prefer the Carrick Bend over the Butterfly Bend.  The Carrick Bend is symmetrical, and lanyards are half decorative.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on November 03, 2010, 07:38:27 PM
I am surprised that you keep telling me what to do,
???
Where did I tell you what to do?
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on November 03, 2010, 07:57:38 PM
  Wrong ! There are bowline variants, like the "mirrored bowlines" I had referred to previously, that are more secure, even than the variants of the Zeppelin loop.

Which variant of the bowline and which variant of the Zeppelin Loop?

Am I to infer that you are going to finally start testing knots, rather than just taking pictures?
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 03, 2010, 08:30:51 PM
Zeppelin Bend is king.  Now, about some others...

I do like the final product of the Ashley Bend better than the Butterfly Bend.  However, the Butterfly Bend has real, practical advantages.  The Butterfly Bend is basically known if you know the Butterfly Loop, which many people know.  Also, the Butterfly Bend is easier to tie correctly.  It's easier (for me) to mess up the Ashley Bend.  I'd rather have a correctly tied Butterfly Bend that's 95% as good as the Ashley Bend, rather than tying the Ashley Bend incorrectly.

EDIT:  As discussed below, I was able to jam the Ashley Bend.  I will not be using this bend if I need to untie the rope.  Because of its tendency to jam, the Ashley Bend may be useful as a fishing knot.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 03, 2010, 09:09:58 PM
 I'd rather have a correctly tied Butterfly Bend that's 95% as good as the Ashley Bend, rather than tying the Ashley Bend incorrectly.

  And there is one more spot in my queen s face, do not forget. :) There are two variants of the Ashley s bend, depending upon the twist of the tails just before they exit the knot s nub, as described in (1) and (2), and analysed in (3).
That might be viewed as a disadvantage of the Ashley s bend - in comparison to the  Butterfly bend- too.

1)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=cccb55c76f162ec461f0ff528d1386a4&topic=1446.msg12818#msg12818
2)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=cccb55c76f162ec461f0ff528d1386a4&topic=1446.msg12900#msg12900
3)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?PHPSESSID=cccb55c76f162ec461f0ff528d1386a4&topic=1446.msg12867#msg12867

Further, there's a slight variation within your (1) above!  After dressing, the tails can lie either side-by-side (as in your pic) or on top of each other.  It's hard to explain in words, but if you play with the knot for awhile, you should know what I mean.  The difference is significant enough that the performance of the bend changes.  For example, one dressing is easier to untie than the other.

To be fair, the Butterfly Bend can also be dressed in 2 or 3 different ways.

EDIT:  As discussed below, I was able to jam the Ashley Bend.  I will not be using this bend if I need to untie the rope.  Because of its tendency to jam, the Ashley Bend may be useful as a fishing knot.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 03, 2010, 10:13:27 PM
I don't think I'll spend more time on the Ashley Bend.  I now remember why the Ashley Bend is NOT one of my favorites.  Awhile ago, I was able to jam the Ashley Bend.  I don't care to have it happen again.  I should have put this property in my notes awhile ago so that I didn't have to revisit this issue.  Jamming is an important consideration because I likely will be pulling something heavy if I use a bend.

David Delaney also performed tests on jamming of bends:
http://davidmdelaney.com/jam-testing/jam-testing-several-bends.html
He found that the Zeppelin, the Butterfly, or the Carrick do NOT have a tendency to jam.  In contrast, he was able to jam the Ashley and the Hunter rock hard 10 out of 10 times.  Test out the Ashley Bend yourself.  You should find that the Ashley Bend just keeps getting tighter and tighter.  In contrast, the Zeppelin, the Butterfly and the Carrick reach a certain tightness and then stop getting tighter.

The good news is that, because of their tendency to jam, I will be testing the Ashley Bend and the Hunter Bend in fishing line.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on November 04, 2010, 07:27:32 AM
It is at times amusing, but with repetition here, distressing to the point
of being hard to read, some arm-chair opinions on esp. the most userful
knots.

I have yet to hear of any actual rope-using application that would
employ many of the sets of knots put forth here.  I can assure you
that the seemingly vogue Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend is extraordinarily
rare bird in the wild (though I would see it happy with Alaskan crabbers,
who employ the Carrick bend); there is some rumor of favor among the
arborists with some posts.

And Knot4U continues to fish with a Zeppelin and eschew his somehow
jammed #1452 ... .  Well, good luck with that.


I'm thinking of the daily duties where something "most useful" should
be expected to be found.  Hmmm, tying up plastic bags (of produce,
of trash) will see Overhand knots and SquaREefs (but I'd luv to see
you "Zeppelin/Butterly" zealots go at it with those knots!).  Shoes
are done with the slipped SquaREef (but there are some nifty securings
to that), or Granny (ditto).  A commercial fisherman's work uses what
could be seen as much half-hitching, with Overhands, Sheet bends,
and the Fisherman's knot --which he won't replace w/Rosendahl's
even (or esp.!) if you put it into some regulation.

Cavers, rockclimbers, arborists, construction workers, ... :  I don't
see them adopting these armchair "most useful" knots, for the
most part (of course, some they do use).

Here's a photo of one lobster boats floats tied to the rail.
Do you think they'd ever use a Sailor's hitch or Anchor bend
vice the clove?  --perhaps the latter, tied to the float, but not
to the rail: that wants a quickly tied, simple knot.  And the 2nd is
a conch-pot bridle --Overhands in three places (eye & two stoppers).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Sweeney on November 04, 2010, 10:11:32 AM

Do you think they'd ever use a Sailor's hitch or Anchor bend
vice the clove?  --perhaps the latter, tied to the float, but not
to the rail: that wants a quickly tied, simple knot. 


I've seen the ground line hitch used (on private motor cruisers usually) rather than a clove (which I agree is more common) - often slipped. I like it because it's quick and easy to tie but I agree with Dan; if anyone asks me for a secure bend in a non-critical situation (and for the vast majority of people bends rarely are critical) I offer the fisherman's knot as its very easy to remember and tie and difficult to tie so badly that it will come undone (or if it does it drops apart at the start) and most users are not bothered about cutting it off when necessary. For a fixed loop, the perfection loop. I think we do tend to focus on the extreme uses of knots sometimes rather than simple practicality - nothing wrong with trying to find the Holy Grail of bends etc but I find myself talking to the majority who have trouble tying shoelaces!

Barry
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on November 04, 2010, 12:04:52 PM
I too agree with Dan and Sweeney on this, and there is of course a slight difference between the knots I teach and the knots I actually use myself. i forgot to mention the simple overhands, which I always include when I teach knots. The bends go right with it, Fisherman's made up of two overhands. But the practical bends that I recommend are the sheet bends, single and double, and for those that have difficulty to remember which way the end should point, bending with two bowlines, which is a good method, whether right- or lefthanded.

So there is an interpretation problem for the question; the most useful for people other than me, or my own most useful ones. i don't have to tie a bend very often, just a few times per year, and I surely want it to be more easily opened than a fisherman's. My bend of choice is the carrick bend, because I can tie it correctly in a consistent way, and just as easily as I tie a sheet bend, and it is more rapidly tied than two bowlines. That practise of course is not everyone's. I haven't seen the carrick bend in use around here by anyone but me and my best friend. And given the rare occasions a bend would be needed at all, I prefer that others would use two bowlines rather than mistying a more esoteric knot like the carrick bend or Rosendahl.

So my list of knots would be different if I make a list of knots to teach in navigation class.
1. Overhand and its use as a bend
2. Fig.8 stopper
2. Half hitch
3. Two half hitches
4. Clove hitch
5. Bowline (as a loop and linked as a bend)
6. Belaying methods with round turns fig8 turns and backhand turns ended with HH
7. Sheet bends (because they are required by the board) and the related Becket hitch
8. Making a coil and finishing with my own method resembling "fireman's"
9. Tying down a load with Trucker's hitch.
10 On top of those the Butterfly loop and my mooring methods including it.

But that list is partly because of requirements for passing a test. My own preferred bend is not in it, but the bend that I prefer that others would use, two bowlines.

Point ten is one where I have met a lot of resistance from people that have been using other methods for a lifetime; even a person on this board tried to convince me that the more "normal" method of restraining movement should be superior. It is rather difficult to introduce improvement to old patterns that are contraproductive. And of course I have to agree with xarax in the post above.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on November 04, 2010, 01:50:09 PM
Yes, as a teacher, when there is a standard to follow, which diverts from my own, I have to apply double standards.

The pupils in these classes will have to pass a test, and there are certain requirements that I cannot side-step. I have to teach a set of knots included in the test.

One of these knots, the bowline, serves well as a bend when you tie one to another. There's no sense in encumbering pupils with an esoteric extra knot that I prefer, when for them, it is probably safer to use the one that they must know, and to use an adaption of it. The Carrick Bend surely is a good knot, and also the Zeppelin/Rosendahl, but I don't want to add to confusion, so I follow the KISS principle. Put a bowline into another bowline, and there's your bend. i would not hesitate to use that myself if it were not that for me, the Carrick Bend is simpler to tie and untie. For the pupil, it would be unnecessary encumbrance. I do not teach dangerous practice, but safe practice.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on November 04, 2010, 03:07:06 PM
   I have to... apply double standards.
   The pupils.have to... pass a test,
   I have to... teach a set of knots included in the test.

   Nobody has to do anything, in a free society and in times of piece, I believe. You choose to do something, and they choose to do something, too.
   So, to me it sounds as you prefer to be a good employee of a board than a good teacher of knots, and your pupils prefer to pass a test than to learn the truth about knots.

It's a lot simpler really. Of course it is a choice, and if the pupils shall pass the test, they must learn a few knots, that are used on board. One of these, the bowline, is a better choice for bending two ropes, because it is used on a daily basis, so it is remembered. Bends are seldom used; I use a bend a few times per year. it would not enhance safety if I tought the Rosendahl/Zeppelin, because it would be soon forgotten, if ever learned. The bowline will not be forgotten, and the bending of two ropes with a bowline into another bowline is a sound practice which works for the purpose.

As a teacher, I cannot give a rats ass about which knot is the most perfect one. I am only concerned about safety, and if safety is accomplished well enough with one of the essential knots that the pupil must know, that's the one I go with. If I tried to teach the Rosendahl, Carrick or Butterfly bend instead of simply combining two bowlines, that would not serve these people. Of course anyone can learn those knots on their own and find them reliable, but it does not fit into navigation class.

Safe has other connotations than safety of the knot itself when tied correctly and well dressed. Most people in the navigation class would not benefit from adding umpteen different practices with just as many different knots. For those that want anything more in depth, those are available, but I would not try to push them on people on a regular basis. The "double standard" is merely the difference between a standard that must be learned for the pupil to pass the test, and what I would use myself for my own convenience. I think it would not serve the pupil well to mess it up with a host of other knots that in essence are not really needed. The caveat is that trying to apply something that you don't do on a daily basis may fail, and it might fail fatally. That's why the linking of two bowlines is safer in a pinch than trying to make some esoteric knot that might be needed once or twice a year.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Sweeney on November 04, 2010, 04:01:06 PM

  That is wrong ! :) The Zeppelin bend is not an "esoteric" knot ...
 

Sorry but according to my dictionary esoteric is exactly what it is. Perhaps we would like people to be more aware of its properties, symmetry etc but at the moment it is only known to those who have either studied a knot book (after ABOK!) or who have seen it tied - I have never seen it used "in the wild" and it is definitely not memorable even as the "b & q" knot compared to say an overhand bend (or EDK) or a square knot whatever their merits or otherwise. And although one may appreciate its symmetry  and prettiness the fact that the ends are at right angles is irritating to many people I have shown it to - beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Barry
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: Dan_Lehman on November 04, 2010, 05:27:21 PM
  I have yet to hear of any actual rope-using application that would
employ many of the sets of knots put forth here.  I can assure you
that the seemingly vogue Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend is extraordinarily
rare bird in the wild...
  
   I'm thinking of the daily duties where something "most useful" should
be expected to be found.  ...
 
    So what ? :)
   It is at times amusing that people turn to the wildness, to the popular, to the oriental, to the occult, to find something supposedly unknown, hidden, or lost, from western civilization...I hope you will not search for the most "useful" knots in the UFOs !  :)

You have a most peculiar mis-reading : I very much looked for "most useful"
among --imagine (or just READ)-- things actually USED; and I looked for
uses for the novel or vogue knots some are putting forth as most useful
--tellingly, devoid of the uses for them.

Quote
 I have to inform you that science is put forward by arm-chair thinkers...

Ah, so now its your turn to do the telling?  Well, if you're seeing much
science in these posts there must be some kind of light (maybe not of stars)
in you eyes.  I think that astrology might be more apt a likening, or religion:
all bow down to the Butterfly!

Quote
Actual applications are often performed poorly or wrongly by the "professionals".
And it takes time for people "in the wild" to learn and adapt the best solutions provided
by the arm-chair scientists and thinkers. Also, people are driven to poor or wrong solutions
because the every day hunt for effectiveness, at all costs, dictate to them to follow the fast,
easy, but dangerous path. And, please, do not use the commercial fishermen, especially
the Alaska crabbers
, with their 5% mortality rate, as paradigms of professionals who do
their work as they do it, because they know better than arm chair thinkers...

This is nonsense, mostly : behaviors evolve from some rub & change wrought by
the applications --bad ones tell and are lost.  That isn't a purely effective method
to betterment, but it can be simply seen (barring star-gazing blindness) that much
of what is done in knotting by regular users works for various reasons,
and a bend such as Rosendahl's (or esp. that more symmetric like knot) has no
value.  --regular use being joining ends of binding cords as bits are added to
the stuff on the needle, or of joining groundlines (if not splice-able, such as
the kernmantle conch-pot longlines are not (photos attached), for which the
fancy novel knots offer nothing desirable and are less easily made, to boot.

The gratuitous remark about fisherman safety is that, because their safety
issues come from the nature of their environment and the demands of
the industry (coupled with some loss of reason associated w/testosterone  ;D
and --alas-- use of drugs) ; they aren't injured because knots fail, and they
really do care that the 800# pots w/crabs set in the deep are retrieved.
Here, Rosendahl's knot I think would serve equally well as the Carrick,
although with its adjacent ends the latter enables a further securing by
a tape wrap, for assurance.


Quote
People are killed because of the daily hunt for profit, because of ignorance, because of bad education.

And there are also cases of rather comical arm-chair inventions going
sorely awry.


Quote
If we really wish to study the truth, we should better follow the science, not the so-called
 "common wisdom", look at the libraries, not in the plastic bags and trash depositories !

???
Science has verifiable, repeatable experiments; it has collected observations
(field work --you need to elevate your duff out of the armchair for this) as
as fuel for building theories; it has an iterative process of trial & error, too.
Religion has all the faith in some posited glory, and finding *facts*
to fall in line, ignoring the rest.

--dl*
====

ps :  My keys cord (holds a couple rings) ends are joined with Rosendahl's
 bend, nicely secured with the *mushroomed* ends at opposite sidesc qua
 stoppers, for years now.  (But some play cord of 3/16-4/16" (5mm) soft nylon
solid braid freed itself from the knot in a day or so.)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 04, 2010, 08:41:48 PM
And Knot4U continues to fish with a Zeppelin and eschew his somehow
jammed #1452 ... .  Well, good luck with that.

???

You made up something and are arguing with yourself like a crazy man.  You do this so often that it's hard to know what's credible.  It's a shame because I think there may be some useful knowledge mixed with all the superfluous comments.

First, I tested the Zeppelin on fishing line AWHILE AGO.  It jams rock hard in fishing line.  You would know this if you tested the Zeppelin Bend in monofilament like I have.  There is a long thread discussing my findings.  I have used the Zeppelin Bend and Double ZB successfully in monofilament fishing to fish and it worked flawlessly.  I know you would like for it not to work, but what can I say? It does.  Second (later in time), I just recently remembered that the Ashley Bend jams.  Third (later in time), I will be testing the Ashley Bend in fishing line.  Do you see how that works?  One thing comes after the other.

It is at times amusing, but with repetition here, distressing to the point
of being hard to read, some arm-chair opinions on esp. the most userful
knots.

I have yet to hear of any actual rope-using application that would
employ many of the sets of knots put forth here.  I can assure you
that the seemingly vogue Rosendahl's "Zeppelin" bend is extraordinarily
rare bird in the wild (though I would see it happy with Alaskan crabbers,
who employ the Carrick bend); there is some rumor of favor among the
arborists with some posts.

Ashley didn't have the Zeppelin Bend in his book.  "Hey, the Zeppelin Bend is so worthless that's it not even in the Ashley Book of Knots."  Do you also subscribe to that erroneous logic?

I hate to be the one to break the news to you:  The Zeppelin Bend is not vogue.  It may be vogue in this tiny little world of knot nerds, but it still remains largely unknown to people who are adept at tying knots.  I use what's tied out in the wild as a rough guide AT BEST.  Most of those folks don't study knots.  They tie what they've been told to tie.  Like other successful free thinkers, I prefer to figure out what works best FOR ME through a combination of reading and experimenting.

I'm thinking of the daily duties where something "most useful" should
be expected to be found.  Hmmm, tying up plastic bags (of produce,
of trash) will see Overhand knots and SquaREefs (but I'd luv to see
you "Zeppelin/Butterly" zealots go at it with those knots!).  Shoes
are done with the slipped SquaREef (but there are some nifty securings
to that), or Granny (ditto).  A commercial fisherman's work uses what
could be seen as much half-hitching, with Overhands, Sheet bends,
and the Fisherman's knot --which he won't replace w/Rosendahl's
even (or esp.!) if you put it into some regulation.

Cavers, rockclimbers, arborists, construction workers, ... :  I don't
see them adopting these armchair "most useful" knots, for the
most part (of course, some they do use).

Here's a photo of one lobster boats floats tied to the rail.
Do you think they'd ever use a Sailor's hitch or Anchor bend
vice the clove?  --perhaps the latter, tied to the float, but not
to the rail: that wants a quickly tied, simple knot.  And the 2nd is
a conch-pot bridle --Overhands in three places (eye & two stoppers).

--dl*
====

Again, I use what's being done in the wild as a rough guide AT BEST.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SAI Peregrinus on November 06, 2010, 07:22:10 AM
Not including the very basic knots (reef knot, overhand knot, etc that nearly everyone knows. Otherwise overhand knot, reef knot, and half-hitching would dominate every list based on real world use.)

1: Alpine Butterfly. It's a loop. It can be easily made into a bend. It's strong. It's easy to tie. It can be tied in the bight if needed. It can be tied around an object for use as a hitch. Double and triple loop variants are easy too.
2: Double Dragon. Same reasons as the Alpine Butterfly really.
3: Adjustable grip hitch. Neither the Double Dragon nor the Alpine Butterfly provides a good slide-and-grip knot. This does, and is strong and easy to tie.
4: Constrictor knot. Easy to tie. Makes a good hitch, a good binding, can be used as a whipping.
5: Figure-8 knot. Bring the end back around and follow itself for a good loop. Join 2 for a bend. Use it as a stopper. VERY easy.
6: Highwayman's hitch. Simple quick release. Easy to remember, if not terribly reliable. None of the above are quite as good for quick release, even when tied with draw loops.
7: Icicle hitch. Grips nearly anything. It can also be used as a prusik knot.
8: Splicing. Basic splicing is quite useful, and very strong.
9: Plaiting. Twisting cord into rope is quite difficult with more than two strands. If you need a thicker rope a good braid can supply one.
10: Turk's Head knot. With knowledge of expansions and interweaves you can create most of the decorative knots you'll ever need.

Really, one could get away with the Butterfly family, icicle hitch, splicing, and plaiting. All of the above are strong (well, except the higwayman's hitch). All are easy to tie. All are part of a larger series of knots, and can be used for multiple purposes.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: roo on November 06, 2010, 04:47:44 PM
6: Highwayman's hitch. Simple quick release. Easy to remember, if not terribly reliable. None of the above are quite as good for quick release, even when tied with draw loops.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on your other choices, but if you already see the deficiency of the Highwayman's Hitch, there are some alternatives.  The Tumble Hitch is one example:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

You can also check out the related pages listed at the bottom of the Tumble Hitch page to further explore the topic.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SAI Peregrinus on November 12, 2010, 08:51:50 AM
6: Highwayman's hitch. Simple quick release. Easy to remember, if not terribly reliable. None of the above are quite as good for quick release, even when tied with draw loops.

I'm going to refrain from commenting on your other choices, but if you already see the deficiency of the Highwayman's Hitch, there are some alternatives.  The Tumble Hitch is one example:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/tumblehitch.html

You can also check out the related pages listed at the bottom of the Tumble Hitch page to further explore the topic.

That does look better, thanks. I'd used the "clove hitch biting a bight" from Peter Suber's "exploding knots (http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/explode.htm)" but that could be easier.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 12, 2010, 07:42:27 PM
That does look better, thanks. I'd used the "clove hitch biting a bight" from Peter Suber's "exploding knots (http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/explode.htm)" but that could be easier.

That may be an "exploding hitch", but it doesn't serve the same purpose as the Highwayman's Hitch or the Tumble Hitch, which will release the rope completely off the object by pulling the working end.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SaltyCracker on November 26, 2010, 02:27:48 PM
Below are the knots & rope skills I find either the most useful or basic. The top 13 are fairly easily learned by moderately motivated eleven+ year olds. Important for the instructor to understand and teach the uses and limitations of the various knots, bends, hitches, lashings, and skills. Emphasize safety.

Knotter's Dozen (think baker's dozen, i.e. 13 donuts)
1.   Bowline
2.   Buntline Hitch (with the option a locking half hitch, like used for a butcher's knot) w/Packer's Corning Knot/Hitch variant (Danger of the buntline's characteristic of "one-way" tightening but not loosening should be emphasized. If you've not already discovered this characteristic, experiment with this knot a bit. See Ashley's section on packer's knots.)
3.   Clove Hitch
4.   Constrictor Knot w/Transom (Ashley) variant (Transom useful as a temporary square/diagonal lashing when limited material available.)
5.   Figure Eight Knot & Bend (Flemish Bend)
6.   Halter Hitch
7.   Overhand Knot & Bend
8.   Rolling Hitch
9.   Sheet Bend
10.   Square/Reef + slipped & bow
11.   Tauntline Hitch
12.   Trucker's/Wagoneer's Hitch
13.   Two Half Hitches (w/Round Turn)

Plus
14.   Coiling & Storing
15.   Fusing
16.   Throwing
17.   Whipping

Lashings
18.   Diagonal Lashing
19.   Floor Lashing
20.   Shear Lashing
21.   Square Lashing
22.   Tripod Lashing

Fishing & Boating
23.   Cleat Hitch
24.   Double Fisherman's/Scaffold Knot (Grapevine Knot, & similar Uni-Knot; Double/multi-Fisherman?s Loop)
25.   Figure Eight Hitch (for braided wire leader)
26.   Highwayman's Hitch
27.   Improved Clinch Knot
28.   Mooring Hitch
29.   Perfection/Angler's Loop

Others
30.   Adjustable Bend
31.   Adjustable Loop
32.   Carrick Bend (& show how to turn into a Turks Head (e.g. Scouter's Woodbadge Woggle) or coaster. There are eight or so different knots for which .   the carrick bend is the foundation.)
33.   Cow Hitch/Lark's Head/Strop Bend
34.   Crossing Knot (and how to tie by passing a coil of line through it's loop)
35.   Decorative Loop & Bend (Ashley shows this as a loop but easily adapted as a bend... good in bungie cord & polypro. Very under appreciated knot. Can .   be tied in the end or bight. Low profile & secure. It's one of Ashley's numbered knots... I'll look up the numbers & post.)
36.   Honda
37.   Icicle Hitch (or Camel Hitch (Ashley))
38.   Alpine Butterfly Loop & Bend (Ashley refers to it as the Lineman's Loop.)
39.   Simple Simon Over (Good in bungie & polypro... i.e. slippery cordage)
40.   Any of the inter-locking overhand knots, e.g. Zepplin bend, Hunter's bend, Ashley shows one, etc.)

Respectfully Submitted,
A Scouter & Sailing Instructor
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SaltyCracker on November 27, 2010, 12:58:12 PM
As a Sr. Member, xarax must be the guy on this forum whose job it is to put new posters in their place by finding fault...

The original post called for an inexact "say 10 or 12"... Putting in the "baker's dozen" list at the top met the spirit of the original request, even though going one knot beyond 12. The rest were to show respect for some other knots and aspects of ropework.

That said, I stand repremanded.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: knot4u on November 27, 2010, 05:34:59 PM
Welcome to the forum KnotInGuild.  That's a thoughtful list that covers a broad range of practical application.  I appreciate the extra knots you added, particularly your 14 through 22.  I need to become more knowledgeable with lashings, whippings, etc.  If you're doing those things with rope on a regular basis, then you're not a novice that's for sure.

I personally found it difficult to narrow my list down to 10 knots.  Looking back, my Top 10 is not always my top ten, depending on what problem I just solved with a knot.  By the way, I have found that the arguments around here are plentiful.  However, I think the arguments are a good thing because within the clash of strong opinions is information that's quite useful.  Overall, I think most people are sincerely trying to improve their knowledge of knots.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SaltyCracker on November 29, 2010, 11:06:15 PM
Thanks xarax & knot4u...

The "Baker's Dozen" (13 knots at the top of my original post) were the one's that I find: 1) Are basic or fill some purpose that, without them on the list, would not be met; 2) Are fairly easy to teach and remember. Since I'm a Scouter, some of the included knots are basic to Cub & Boy Scouts. The rest of the knots are not in any order. #40 could have been #14 if the list had been pushed one more.

If I had to drop one of the original 13 to get the list down into the "say 10 or 12" of StandingBear's original request, it would probably be the venerable sheet bend. Not because it isn't a basic knot worth knowing and one I use frequently but 1) Because it is basically the same form as the bowling; 2) The Flemish bend is a much more secure (safer) way to join two ropes; 3) the Flemish Bend gets the nod over some of the other "joining" knots because it is easier to learn, remember, and check.

I still need to look up the "Decorative Loop" reference number from Ashley's. It's become one of my favorites since it is very secure, holds reasonably well in shock cord & polypro, can be tied in the bight (but not nearly as good of an "in the bight" knot as the Butterfly loop), has a low diamiter, can be modified to join to ropes or cords, and it's ends come out parallel to the working/standing leads... but I wouldn't call it easy to learn or remember. I looks a bit like a vis-a-versa.
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SaltyCracker on November 30, 2010, 06:14:27 PM
Decorative Knot reference in ABoK #1031 & #1048

From previous post... "I still need to look up the "Decorative Loop" reference number from Ashley's. It's become one of my favorites since it is very secure, holds reasonably well in shock cord & polypro, can be tied in the bight (but not nearly as good of an "in the bight" knot as the Butterfly loop), has a low diamiter, can be modified to join to ropes or cords, and it's ends come out parallel to the working/standing leads... but I wouldn't call it easy to learn or remember. I looks a bit like a vis-a-versa."
Title: Lashings reference... Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SaltyCracker on November 30, 2010, 06:43:54 PM
knot4u
You wrote: "I appreciate the extra knots you added, particularly your 14 through 22.  I need to become more knowledgeable with lashings, whippings, etc.  If you're doing those things with rope on a regular basis, then you're not a novice that's for sure."

Good reference for lashings is Rope Works by Gerald L Findley. The basic version is only 10.99 US and he has a Plus version that came out since I purchased my copy. It sells for a little more.  It has quite a few other knots & rope work techniques as well. Small & compact, it's the book I carry in the knot bag I use to teach from. http://www.ropeworks.biz/text08/book.html

The new knot I learned from the book was the Monkey's Paw, not Fist, Paw. Think it's the same as the Chinese Button Knot but until I saw it in this book didn't relate it to the Carrick Bend. The Carrick Bend is the basis for several other knots such as knife lanyard knot, 3 lead by 4 bight turks head, a round mat (drink coaster) based on the turks head form, and the long mat, as well as the bends and loops that can be formed with the basic Carrick Bend itself.

Title: Update to Nov 26 post... Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: SaltyCracker on January 03, 2011, 01:34:40 AM
Based upon the exchange in the "Subtle Buntline" thread, my post of November 26 was updated. The following is the key (substantive) change. Other punctuation and minor clarification changes were also made in that post.

2.   Buntline Hitch (with the option a locking half hitch, like used for a butcher's knot) w/Packer's Corning Knot/Hitch variant (Danger of the buntline's characteristic of "one-way" tightening but not loosening should be emphasized. If you've not already discovered this characteristic, experiment with this knot a bit. See Ashley's section on packer's knots.)
Title: Re: Top ten most useful knots.
Post by: xarax on November 26, 2014, 12:33:22 PM
   In accordance to the post with the "new" knots (1), here is a collection of a baker s dozen of already known, useful and neat knots, IMHO.

   Alpine Butterfly loop
   Blackwall hitch ( within a bight )
   Bowline
   Double Harness bend ( ABoK#1420 )
   Fig.8, bend and loop
   Fisherman s knot ( single and double )
   Gleipnir
   Rat tail stopper
   Round turn and two half hitches
   Transom / Constrictor / Strangle
   Tumbling Thief knot
   Zeppelin bend

   1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=5084.0

   Edit ( 2015-4-10)
   Since the Constrictor, the Strangle - and the Transom as well ( ABoK#385/1182/1255/3372 ) are, in a sense, the "same" knot ( they "work" the same way : a twisted around each other pair of Standing/Tail Ends, squeezed in between a riding turn and the surface of the pole/spar, so the friction forces inside them are enhanced ), I place them at the same slot, as I do for the retraced fig.8 bend and loop. So, my pantheon has now one vacant seat, and I have to decide which knot should occupy it !  :) )