International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: DaveRoot on May 30, 2005, 04:38:41 AM

Title: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on May 30, 2005, 04:38:41 AM
I have seen both of these referred to as a Tugboat Bowline:

Tugboat A:
(http://www.layhands.com/knots/TugboatBowline1.jpg) (http://www.layhands.com/knots/TugboatBowline2.jpg) (http://www.layhands.com/knots/TugboatBowline3.jpg)

Tugboat B:
(http://www.layhands.com/knots/TugboatBowlineAlt1.jpg) (http://www.layhands.com/knots/TugboatBowlineAlt2.jpg) (http://www.layhands.com/knots/TugboatBowlineAlt3.jpg)


Which one is the "real" Tugboat, and does the other one have a name?  Is the Tugboat Bowline the same as the Flying Bowline?

Also, this is the Perfection Loop, right?
(http://www.layhands.com/knots/PerfectionLoop1.jpg) (http://www.layhands.com/knots/PerfectionLoop2.jpg) (http://www.layhands.com/knots/PerfectionLoop3.jpg)


I'd be interested in hearing the pros and cons of these knots when tied in rope.

Thx!

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 30, 2005, 07:11:36 AM
Quote
Which is the real Tugboat Bwl?

This topic has been discussed on this forum previously, with major
contributions from Paul Kruse, who cites its use:
"The seamen all know this knot and I have no doubt that they use it
from time to time when they need a very quickly tied loop.  I've spent
time with the seamen fishing and SCUBA diving on private boats,
and I know they use it there."
He referred to Version-B of your images.

What makes one version "real"?!  --being in some book?
I'm only aware of the name being in Brion Toss's The Complete
Rigger's Apprentice
; and there, alas, the case is quite confused,
as my comments to him point out:

p.66-7, The Flying/Tugboat Bwl
The text clearly describes a "technique" for tying the previously shown
Perfection/Angler's Loop. But, the tying instructions and their associated
images conflict with the text of the main body, in that they more or less
clearly show a knot other than the Angler's Loop (EKFRp491#303)--but
with no image of the tied knot.

The text in the body of the book (i.e., not w/images) says "So they use
THIS KNOT instead [of a Bwl] and think so highly of it, DESPITE ITS
SHORTCOMINGS, ..." [my emphasis]. The only referent for "this knot"
for which any shortcomings have been cited is "Angler's Loop"--the
shortcoming being "a tendency to jam". "A form of" thus must denote
only an alternative tying method (as noted in #5 above), like those
several different "versions" & "variations" of the Bowline--the end
product always being the same knot.


With a Googling, I find some suggestion in others' discussions that
some sort of knot by the name exists, with some references clearly
pointing to the Angler's Loop (which is the only one to be claimed
more secure in PP ropes), and others less clear of what ... .

And the Anglers/Perfection loop is definitely your 3rd/lowest knot.
The above arguments suggest that one should regard the Tugboat/Flying
Bwl as = Anglers Loop, but I'd recommend not doing that--who needs
yet another name for it?
Of versions A & B, as previously noted (and this should be easily seen
by any who tie & test it), Version-A is liable to deform & capsize; thus,
I'd like to see the name "Tugboat Bwl" designate Version-B, provided
that in fact this is what one finds in use on tugboats--something I've
no information on, beyond Paul's testimony.  (Frankly, I don't consider
the knot to be a bowline--it lacks the essential nipping loop of the
SPart.)

Version-A modified with a full turn of the end (i.e.., take the end back
around and then back through the knot beside itself) yields a quite
nice-looking knot which I surmise tends to greater strength and easier
untying than other versions.  Both versions gain stability from the
extra turn just described.

--dl*
=====
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian Grimley on May 30, 2005, 08:46:13 PM
DaveRoot,

I would call the loop you labeled "Tugboat A" as the "Harness Loop" or "Artilleryman's Knot" or "Man-Harness Knot". ABOK #1050 and#153.

I have seen "Tugboat B" called the "Speed Bowline" in Bill Fry's, a juggler, "Knot Throwing" book (with a Warning / Disclaimer, i.e. NOT a bowline). But, I have no preference of the names "Speed", "Flying" or "Tugboat Bowline". Like Dan, I would be happy with "Tugboat Bowline".

I agree with Dan that "Tugboat C" is the "Angler's / Perfection loop".

The difference between Tugboat B (Tugboat Bwl) and Tugboat C (Perfection loop) is simply a half twist. Compare the second diagram of Tugboat B with the second diagram of Tugboat C. A half twist (top over bottom) of Tugboat B's right-hand loop gives the second diagram of Tugboat C.  

Since both loops can be Tied In the Bight, essentially, the same "speedy" method can be used to tie each loop with the addition or not of a half twist. Perhaps this caused some confusion with names (?).

If you can have a look at the 'detail' drawing on p66 of Brion Toss' "The Complete Rigger's Apprentice", his speedy method might help to illustrate the above. When Toss moves from the lower right diagram to the upper left, he twists both his wrists, tucks and creates the Tugboat Bwl (mirrow image of your Tugboat B).

However, if Toss only twisted his right wrist, and tucked the resulting bight through the loop remaining in his left hand, he would create the Perfection Loop.  

Frankly, Brion Toss' presentation of this drove (and still drives) me nuts! Bill Fry's presentation is much clearer for me! I hope the above makes sense - Brian.

Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: KnotNow! on May 30, 2005, 11:09:19 PM
Hi, I agree that the "Tugboat Bowline" is "The Anglers Loop" ABOK # 1017, by a different method.  It is also shown as "Perfection Loop"/"Angler's Loop" by Lindsey Philpott in his book "Knots, a complete guide" and as "Angler's Loop" by Brion Toss in "Complete Riggers Apprentice".  Brion then shows the other method, on the run as it were.  I too had trouble sorting out Brion's description of forming it by the "Flying Bowline" method.  To finally learn it I just tied up an anglers loop and loosened it enough to see which hand had to go where and backed up through the sequence until I and an untied rope.  Then I went forward again until I had the knot in again.  Back and forth until I could do it with some competence.  However I seem to have ended up on the other side of the mirror, to get ABOK #1017 or Perfection from Lindsey or Brion I have to start with the standing part to my left and work the working end with my right.  As to version A and B neither is perfection nor tugboat.  I don't put the anglers loop in anything that is not expendable. Works great for what it was designed for.  Seem to jam and become a hatched or knife knot which keeps it out of my rope.  And as much fun as I have had showing off the "Tugboat Bowline" I really can get a regular bowline into the line wihout breaking my stride so have relegated the Tugboat Bowline to being a party trick.
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 31, 2005, 09:23:46 AM
Quote
I would call the loop you labeled "Tugboat A" as the "Harness Loop" or "Artilleryman's Knot" or "Man-Harness Knot". ABOK #1050 and#153.

I would give Brian an "A" for topology, but something more alphabetically
advanced
for nodology.   ;)  The Artillery loop is afterall intended to be
loaded in a series, and preferably with the eye pulled leftwards, as Ashley
orients it--prone to deform if pulled rightwards (though the result of that
is interesting).  Clearly what Dave shows is otherwise oriented.

Version-B is in EKFR, as I noted above, p491#303.  Hansel&Gretel call it
a Single Bwl on the Bight, for what that's worth (little).  I wonder where
they got it?  Again, I find the doubled version of A to be quite good
--something PABPRES might fancy as the ultimate NON-hatchet knot
(and which will give any knot a run for its money in the pull-test)!

(-;
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 31, 2005, 09:59:12 AM
Well, on looking at #153, I see that Ashley there had the direction of
loading opposite what I surmised from #1050.  Hmmm.  But it is still
intended as more of an inline loopknot, of a series for several pullers
(not one person hauling a cannon), and so not like the knots at issue
here.  Moreover, the crossing of the eye's legs in the knot for Version-A
are pretty necessary for a chance at a stable knot, and the Artillery knot
reallly doesn't want them crossed (though one image shows it @1050).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 03, 2005, 05:01:28 PM
Now that my computer is working again, let me see if I can summarize what we've got so far...

There is general agreement that the third set of pictures (above) is the Perfection Loop/Angler's Loop, but the Tugboat still seems to be up in the air.

Dan said that Paul Kruse elsewhere referred to "Tugboat B" (above) as the Tugboat Bowline:

Quote
This topic has been discussed on this forum previously, with major contributions from Paul Kruse, who cites its use: "The seamen all know this knot and I have no doubt that they use it from time to time when they need a very quickly tied loop.  I've spent time with the seamen fishing and SCUBA diving on private boats, and I know they use it there."
He referred to Version-B of your images.


However, in another thread Roo and Paul Kruse seemed to feel that "Tugboat A" (above) is the Tugboat Bowline/Flying Bowline/Artillery Loop/"single form of the Double Dragon":

Quote
I looked up the Flying Bowline or Tugboat Bowline.  It is not a Double Dragon Loop, but it is the "single" version of the loop, that is a form of the Artillery Loop as we discussed.   See the "detail" image on p. 66 of The Complete Rigger's Apprentice if you have access to it.  Be warned that the steps look as if they're presented in reverse order.


Dan pointed out that the Tugboat Bowline/Flying Bowline might be regarded as being the Angler's Loop/Perfection Loop based on the arguments he quoted, but he doesn't recommend doing that:

Quote
The above arguments suggest that one should regard the Tugboat/Flying Bwl as = Anglers Loop, but I'd recommend not doing that--who needs yet another name for it?


Instead, Dan's preference for the Tugboat Bowline is "Tugboat B," if in fact this is actually used on tugboats:

Quote
I'd like to see the name "Tugboat Bwl" designate Version-B, provided that in fact this is what one finds in use on tugboats--


Brian agreed that "Tugboat A" is the Artillery Loop, and he seems to agree that the Tugboat Bowline/Flying Bowline/Speed Bowline should be "Tugboat B":

Quote
I have seen "Tugboat B" called the "Speed Bowline" in Bill Fry's, a juggler, "Knot Throwing" book (with a Warning / Disclaimer, i.e. NOT a bowline). But, I have no preference of the names "Speed", "Flying" or "Tugboat Bowline". Like Dan, I would be happy with "Tugboat Bowline".


Roy said that the Tugboat Bowline is the same as the Perfection Loop/Angler's Loop (and also the Flying Bowline, if I read his post right):

Quote
Hi, I agree that the "Tugboat Bowline" is "The Anglers Loop" ABOK # 1017, by a different method.  It is also shown as "Perfection Loop"/"Angler's Loop" by Lindsey Philpott in his book "Knots, a complete guide" and as "Angler's Loop" by Brion Toss in "Complete Riggers Apprentice".  Brion then shows the other method, on the run as it were.  I too had trouble sorting out Brion's description of forming it by the "Flying Bowline" method. ... As to version A and B neither is perfection nor tugboat.


Dan mentioned that the doubled version of "Tugboat A" is quite a good knot, and I assume from this that he is referring to the Double Dragon (i.e "Tugboat A" with a second wrap of the dead end):

Quote
I find the doubled version of A to be quite good--something PABPRES might fancy as the ultimate NON-hatchet knot (and which will give any knot a run for its money in the pull-test)!



For whatever it's worth, the only picture of a "Tugboat Bowline" that I have seen online is this set of earrings: http://www.agacorrea.com/aga/cgi-bin/dispimg.pl?imageID=691.  However, I don't know where they got their information.


As for the pros and cons, the consensus seems to be that the Perfection Loop jams fairly easily, which is fine for anglers but not necessarily good in rope (depending on the application).  "Tugboat A" has similar strengths and weaknesses as the Artillery Loop (being topologically the same), and Dan pointed out that it is liable to deform & capsize.  "Tugboat A" modified with a full turn of the end (i.e. the Double Dragon) is quite good, and "Tugboat B" also gains stability from an extra turn.

So....it appears that there's no firm consensus on what is the "real" Tugboat Bwl (in whatever way we define "real").  The Tugboat Bwl and the Perfection Loop occasionally come up in email conversations, so I am planning to add them to my website.  The P.L. is pretty clear, but for the T.Bwl I'm trying to determine if I should show the pictures for "Tugboat A" or "Tugboat B."  Or perhaps should I simply show both sets of pictures as alternate versions of the Tugboat?  Just trying not to disseminate any inaccurate information!  :-)

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian Grimley on June 03, 2005, 09:53:38 PM
Dave,

This is just to help you out ... honest!

Here: http://dickeyfamilyresearch.com/knot_pics/Bowline_Start_0.htm , Glenn Dickey shows a "Bowline Menu Page".

Jumping to his "Bowline names and variation list", Glen Dickey references the "Tugboat Bowline" to Graumont and Hensel's "Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Rope Work", p. 588, Plate 314, Fig. 2.

As Dan pointed out, your Tugboat B is shown in EKFR, p.491, fig. 303 and G&H call it "Single Bowline on the Bight".

I compared G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" to your Tugboat B. I thought that if I cut the loop of your "Tugboat B" and called these the standing and working ends; then, joined your standing and working ends to form a loop, that "Tugboat B var." would be the same as G&H's "Tugboat Bowline".  Unfortunately, they are not - the final tuck is different. I then wondered if G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" could be tied in the bight. It can, so it is another knot that should be considered as the proper "Tugboat Bowline". Let's hope I am wrong.  ;D

Brian.

Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian Grimley on June 03, 2005, 10:07:44 PM
This software did the childish censorship thing again. It substituted "thingy" for part of Glen's surname.

Substitute "thingy" with d?ck, were ? = i in the URL. Substitute "thingy" with D?ck, were ? = i when you read his name.

Brian.
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 04, 2005, 12:13:20 AM
Quote
Dan mentioned that the doubled version of "Tugboat A" is quite a good knot, and I assume from this that he is referring to the Double Dragon (i.e "Tugboat A" with a second wrap of the dead end).

Yes; the 2nd wrap provides good stability, and then the greater deformation
of this version I think gives superior strength & ease of untying.  (YMMV)

Quote
the only picture of a "Tugboat Bowline" that I have seen online is this set of earrings: http://www.agacorrea.com/aga/cgi-bin/dispimg.pl?imageID=691.  However, I don't know where they got their information.

Good find!!

Quote

As for the pros and cons, the consensus seems to be that the Perfection Loop jams fairly easily, which is fine for anglers but not necessarily good in rope (depending on the application).

Rather, "necessary" for anglers.  Might be desireable behavior for some rope
uses where the jamming is of the "won't loosen" sort but not loaded so much
to be "welded".

Quote
 "Tugboat A" has similar strengths and weaknesses as the Artillery Loop (being topologically the same), and Dan pointed out that it is liable to deform & capsize.

Whoa!  "Being t. the same" is NOT a basis for similar behavior--all TIB knots
are that with no knot, but of course have different behavior!  My point was
quite the contrary:  that the Artillery loop was a different knot, despite its
t. similarity.

Quote

So....it appears that there's no firm consensus on what is the "real" Tugboat Bwl (in whatever way we define "real").

And so you should show all FOUR versions (single & "double", i.e., of A & B),
and make the point explicitly.  Esp. as some tying methods might tend to
produce one or the other rather similarly.  And you can note that doubling
is an assurance of a decent/stable knot, for those who don't want to try to
remember the differences--just do A "Double" and it will be okay.  As for what
tugboat workers use, that remains a research item (and might yield a set of
knots, not any single one).

As for Hansel&Gretel, well, who knows what they were thinking.  To my eye,
NOW (contrary a note in the margin of my copy of the book written by me
some time ago), I see the shorter end going down Over-OVER-Under ... ,
and note that this knot can't be any of the above even with the two ends
joined to be the eye (were OVER->UNDER, then it would).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: KnotNow! on June 05, 2005, 05:22:17 AM
I tend to be wrong at the top of my lungs.  Did it again in print.  This thread made me go back to Brion's book and the "Tugboat Bowline".  I missundetstood his instructions and now I have made a "flying perfection loop".  Then, after apologizing to all present (and Brion), I need to find all the folks who have taught me "speed bowlines"... never mind that some of the folks called the knots "bowlines on a bight".. please don't open that can of worms... I will now say that I don't know what the tugboat bowline is!   I'll say that I can now tie the perfection loop "on the fly".  The testing I did of the Tugboat was based on the Perfection, so my previous discussions on "this breaks before that" are worthless.  Now I don't know "what" to test against "what".  I don't see this thread as settled yet or resolved.  And yes; Dan;  Publishing a name for a knot is the "naming of a knot" at least as far as I can cope.  As a case in point the "Dragon Bowline" is intended as joke.. it is a standard bowline tied and dragged along the deck.  This goes back with me for 45 years.  Now, somehow, it is a "real knot" to the arborists and some very knowledegable folks.   Look at the arborists sites and find a consensis as to what is the "Dragon Bowline" (which they don't think to be a joke)
"Tugboat Bowline" or Flying Bowline or Speed Bowline are not jokes but the Dragon has always been such.
 I don't know how to judge altered knots.   I guess if it is judged by how proficiently a novice can tie it..or in what size hawser it can be made.. or how badly it jams.  I don't think we have settled it.  Several of the people who have done "speed bowlines" may have shown me several different knots, which may be different from perfection or a "flying" knot...  but once I had it set in my head that they were teaching me "perfection loops by a different method"... well there I go... foot in mouth.
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 05, 2005, 04:30:11 PM
Thx for the topology correction!

Hmmmm...sounds like Graumont and Hensel's "Tugboat" is different than the two variations I posted, and Brian has offered to tie it and send me a pic.  I'm thinking I'll show all of these variations which have been published as the "Tugboat," and simply point out that an extra wrap of the end makes these more stable (is this also true for G&H's version?).

Now to throw another twist into the mix.  Paul Kruse was fond of the "Figure 8 Perfection Loop," as he called it, but now I can't find his discussion of it on this forum.  I was just looking at it the other day, was it deleted for some reason??.  Has anyone else used this, and does it seem worthy of note?

Dave

Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 07, 2005, 12:59:03 AM
Quote
Hmmmm...sounds like Graumont and Hensel's "Tugboat" is different than the two variations I posted, and Brian has offered to tie it and send me a pic.  I'm thinking I'll show all of these variations which have been published as the "Tugboat," and simply point out that an extra wrap of the end makes these more stable (is this also true for G&H's version?).

The Hansel&Gretel so-named knot IS different, in two ways:  firstly, it has
the eye-legs & ends (SPart & end) swapped--i.e., it takes the basic crossing-knot
form in the opposite orientation--; and it differs in the particular crossings.
As such, it lacks most of the good qualities cited for the other versions, and
to my mind is vulnerable to slipping & spilling.  I don't see a good reason for
giving this knot further publicity?  For all we know, H&G simply botched some
record they had of a bona fide knot, or else just cooked this thing up on the fly.
(And it seems that cited site of many bowlines has given publicity to some
more of the dubious structures found in H&G--all because they are THERE.
Echoing mistakes might be knotting tradition, but one that should end.)

Quote

Paul Kruse was fond of the "Figure 8 Perfection Loop," as he called it, but now I can't find his discussion of it on this forum.  I was just looking at it the other day, was it deleted for some reason??.  Has anyone else used this, and does it seem worthy of note?

Just giving a half-turn/-twist to the Angler's Loop before tucking out the eye
bight is perhaps what Paul presented; it lacks the security of the Overhand-based
Perfection loop, which should make untying easier, but I don't know that it
has more or as much to offer as Ashley's #1043.

--dl*
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 07, 2005, 02:05:22 PM
For those who haven't seen G&H's Tugboat Bwl, here are some pics that Brian sent me:

(http://www.layhands.com/knots/h_g_tugbwl2.jpg)

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian Grimley on June 08, 2005, 12:31:36 AM
Dave, thank you for posting the pictures of the "H&G's Tugboat Bwl".

I looked again at the third picture of Dave's Tugboat B (Tugboat Bowline) to try to understand its relationship with the "H&G's Tugboat Bwl".

First, let me call the bight on the right hand side of Dave's third Tugboat B picture, "Bight 1". Going to the left, let me call the second bight, "Bight 2".

Now, starting with Dave's third Tugboat B picture, move the working end to be parallel to and beside the standing part. Then, flip "Bight 2" to lie over the parallel working and standing parts. Holding the working and standing parts together, tighten the knot with the free hand. What do we have? We have "H&G's Tugboat Bwl"!

That, I think, is the relationship between the two knots -the "Tugboat Bowline" and the "H&G's Tugboat Bowline".

Crossing my fingers - Brian.





Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 08, 2005, 04:39:32 PM
Quote
Now, starting with Dave's third Tugboat B picture, move the working end to be parallel to and beside the standing part. Then, flip "Bight 2" to lie over the parallel working and standing parts. Holding the working and standing parts together, tighten the knot with the free hand. What do we have? We have "H&G's Tugboat Bwl"!


Interesting, good catch!

Quote
Glen Dickey references the "Tugboat Bowline" to Graumont and Hensel's "Encyclopedia of Knots and Fancy Rope Work", p. 588, Plate 314, Fig. 2.

As Dan pointed out, your Tugboat B is shown in EKFR, p.491, fig. 303 and G&H call it "Single Bowline on the Bight".


If I'm understanding correctly, G&H's "Single Bowline on the Bight" is identical to my Tugboat B, and G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is my Tugboat B but with "bight 2" (as Brian called it) flipped over.

In looking back over this thread, the only vote (so to speak) for my Tugboat A being the Tugboat Bowline was a comment by roo, equating the "single Dragon" with the Tugboat Bwl.  Perhaps this was a case of mistaken identity?  Roy mentioned that the Tugboat Bwl is the same as the Perfection Loop, but after going back to Brion's book he changed his mind.  G&H described my Tugboat B as the "Single Bowline on the Bight," but it seems that people aren't very impressed with that designation (judging by the comments in this thread)!  In addition, G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is a variation of my Tugboat B.  Taking all of this into account, and including other comments in this thread, it seems that my Tugboat B is emerging as the best candidate for the Tugboat Bwl.  If that's correct, then my Tugboat A would simply be the single form of the Double Dragon, and a variation of the Artillery Loop.

Sound reasonable?

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: KnotNow! on June 08, 2005, 08:26:41 PM
Hi Dave, Seems as if you have sorted it out far better than I ever could.  After all your research do you think the Tug Boat Bowline, as you now have identified it, is intended to be tied by a "speed" flip of the wrist method?
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: knudeNoggin on June 08, 2005, 11:54:26 PM
Quote
G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is my Tugboat B but with "bight 2" (as Brian called it) flipped over.

Which reverses the arrangement of the crossing-knot base of this knot,
as was previously pointed out as a big, fundamental difference (to exclude the
H&G knot from real consideration as some kind of kin).  Despite this simple change,
the knots are quite different in character, in the course of the S.Part.

Quote

In looking back over this thread, the only vote (so to speak) for my Tugboat A being the Tugboat Bowline was ... . Perhaps this was a case of mistaken identity?

Is no one struck (and dismayed) by the fact that there has been no evidence
from the field, so to speak, as to the implication of the supposed moniker??!
Shouldn't the concern (& research!) be to see what use(s) the candidate knots
have received (Paul Kruse's testimony did not point to tugs, note), and--working
from the other direction (i.e., from the nominal use)--what tugboat workers actually
use (and why)?!  Think about tugs:  boats intended to pull big things (bigger boats
& barges); boats that employ large cordage (hawsers/cables).  Can you picture
such cordage being tied in a "flying" manner?  --how large of an eye can one form
by such tying, and would that suffice in the implied application?
These thoughts raise doubts, for me.

Quote
Roy mentioned that the Tugboat Bwl is the same as the Perfection Loop, but after going back to Brion's book he changed his mind.

I don't quite see PABPRES's change of mind.  Brion's book clearly shows in an IMAGE
your knot-B; but his text, as well noted above, is ambiguous at best.
(And then there should come those doubts about practicality.)

Quote
In addition, G&H's "Tugboat Bowline" is a variation of my Tugboat B.

That is a debatable assertion re what should count as a variation, as I argue above.
But the simple change from one to the other lends some support to one having
been intended and somehow fudged by mishandling into the other.  And there is
yet an in-between formation, in which the non-S.Part leg of the eye straightens
out its turn around the end, such that the S.Part makes just a broad twist/curve
through the knot.  Such knots can be seen in hawsers sometimes (a bowline
capsizes into such a knot).

Quote
Taking all of this into account, and including other comments in this thread, it seems that my Tugboat B is emerging as the best candidate for the Tugboat Bwl.  If that's correct, then my Tugboat A would simply be the single form of the Double Dragon, and a variation of the Artillery Loop.
Sound reasonable?

No, it sounds like some kind of popularity contest, too divorced from reality and
practical interests.  Although I am inclined to your view, in a way; and knot-B
is a good one, though also as noted knot-A with a full wrap of end becomes quite
good and arguably best.  (Not being much practised with the "flying" tying, I can't
speculate on which version might come most readily from that--which could be a clue,
were that method seen to be reasonable, which is questioned.)

As for the relation to the (Man)harness/Artillery loop, that seems more coincidental
than meaningful; Ashley's information points to a mid-line loopknot intended
to be loaded on all parts, or on both ends alone (dropper knot) maybe.
Maybe somewhere it came to suggest this "tugboat" phenomenon; but where
is the evidence of that, if so?

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 09, 2005, 02:25:19 AM
Quote
After all your research do you think the Tug Boat Bowline, as you now have identified it, is intended to be tied by a "speed" flip of the wrist method?

I don't know, I don't usually use "flip of the wrist" methods, mainly because I tend to forget how to do them after awhile! ;D


Quote
Is no one struck (and dismayed) by the fact that there has been no evidence from the field, so to speak, as to the implication of the supposed moniker??! Shouldn't the concern (& research!) be to see what use(s) the candidate knots have received (Paul Kruse's testimony did not point to tugs, note), and--working from the other direction (i.e., from the nominal use)--what tugboat workers actually use (and why)?!  Think about tugs:  boats intended to pull big things (bigger boats & barges); boats that employ large cordage (hawsers/cables).  Can you picture such cordage being tied in a "flying" manner?  --how large of an eye can one form by such tying, and would that suffice in the implied application?

It would be interesting to find out if tugboat personnel use a "Tugboat Bowline" (which might have a use for which a "flying" method is suitable) and to see how it is tied.  However, the person who coined the "Tugboat Bowline" term might have been standing on a tugboat at the time, or looking at a tugboat, or thinking of a tugboat, or perhaps the knot reminded him/her of a tugboat, or perhaps he first used the knot on the pull-string of his child's tugboat toy, etc., etc.  Case in point, the "Double Dragon" name has nothing to do with dragons, whether real or mythical.


Quote
No, it sounds like some kind of popularity contest, too divorced from reality and practical interests.

When a group of people agree to refer to a thing by a particular name, that tends to become the name of the thing.  Case in point, Paul Kruse submitted the Double Dragon on this forum to find out if it was a known knot.  It was agreed (by those who replied) that it was not known by any of them, so Paul's temporary name for the knot ("Double Dragon") became the standard name by virtue of common usage.

Similarly, unless someone is able to get an answer from a tugboat worker (if indeed this is where the name originated), or from the person who coined the term, all we really have to go on is common usage or "agreement among interested parties."  Then again, maybe the IGKT has some influence to make a definitive ruling, so to speak (as suggested at http://www.igkt.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1105530774;start=10)!    ;D

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian Grimley on June 09, 2005, 05:05:25 PM
Jimbo, Mike and Dave have shown how useful a posted picture is in "knot chat". For interested readers, the "Double Dragon Loop" mentioned in this thread is shown on Roo's site. Roo posted a picture sent to him by Paul Kruse. It is here: http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/doubledragon.html .

Brian.
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: knudeNoggin on June 10, 2005, 04:49:23 AM
Quote
the "Double Dragon Loop" mentioned in this thread is shown on Roo's site ... here: www.geocities.com/roo_two/doubledragon.html .

And looking at this I can see a quick-tying method which doesn't constrain the
eye to be within the tyer's arm span (which Brion Toss's Apprentice[/u] method does):
with the left hand, seize the Z-shaped layout of rope--all three near-paralleo part,
i.e.--near the right side, leaving an ample bight for tucking the eye out;
with the right hand, hold this right-bight rightwards and then make
the flipping of the end, apprpriately; now draw the whatever-sized eye
through and finish.

As for popular names, Dave, with "Dbl.Dragon" there is no contest, and no
implication of some use; it is otherwise with "Tugboat Bwl", which implies an
application area.  And the people bandying about this name aren't primary users of the knot,
just knotheads  ::)  .
So, I prefer to hope for better backing.

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 10, 2005, 08:52:36 PM
Got a bunch of email addresses for tug/towing companies throughout the U.S., and I'm sending an email to them.  Be interesting to see what turns up!

Stay tuned...
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 12, 2005, 12:51:53 AM
Quote
Got a bunch of email addresses for tug/towing companies throughout the U.S., and I'm sending an email to them.  Be interesting to see what turns up!

Bravo, Dave!
I spent some GooglEyed time chasing after some link to Captain Stewart
of Theodore Tugboat, futiley--seems to have been mostly a ca. 2000 phenom.,
though perhaps one can yet connect.  The capt.'s bio made him sound like
a good person to ask.

Indeed, it will be interesting to learn what some sources can tell.

Cheers,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 15, 2005, 03:10:55 AM
I sent out a couple dozen emails, and heard from someone who knew of "a master who has sailed tug boats and knows how to tie" a Tugboat Bowline.  I contacted that person and received a very helpful reply:

Quote
Dear Dave

I have seen and used the tug bowline, the main advantage is it can be tied very quickly.  It reduces the strength of the rope about 10% more than a conventional bowline, but if you need a loop in hurry can't beat it.

1/ start with the bitter end in one hand palms up , leave about 2 feet of slack hanginig use your most dexterous hand for this
2/ hold the standing part in the other hand palms up,     (now the tricky part)
3/ hold your arms away from your body and flick the bitter end around the standing parts, the bitter end should swing out in front of you then back under the standing parts and pass between your arm and your body, then back over the standing parts.
4/ you should have at this point the bitter end wrapped around the standing parts. and a loop in each hand.
5/ pass the loop where the bitter end was thru the other loop
6/ let go of the standing part loop
7/ grab the bitter end loop with your now free hand
8/ release the standing loop hand
6/ then use the bitter end hand to grab the standing part  of the line to tighten the knot.

one word of cautioin if the knot is subjected to a very heavy strain it can be a bit troublesome to untie, otherwise it is a great knot.

Regards
Phil


I asked for his permission to post his instructions here, and invited him to participate in the discussion (I sent him a link to this thread).  Here is his reply:

Quote
Hi Dave,

I do not mind at all if you post my comments and you can use my name.  I looked at the pictures of the knot on the web site, and "Tugboat A" is the knot you get when you do it as I explained. The real advantage of this knot is after you learn to tie it it can be done in about 4 to 5 seconds with a 2in Dia line, so it is a very quick loop to tie. Let me know if I can help with anyhting else.

Regards
Phil


The voice of experience!  

Dave

Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian_Grimley on June 15, 2005, 05:20:42 AM
Dave,

Wow! Great result on your e-mails! If Phil is reading this, thank you for your help!

Following Phil's instructions, I keep ending up with the "Tugboat B".  What am I missing?

Elsewhere, one comment I read was that the "Tugboat Bowline" was only used to impress the girls on the dock.  ;D I am glad to hear from a Tugboat Master that it is also a useful and practical knot.  :)

Cheers with a smile - Brian.
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 15, 2005, 10:00:57 AM
Quote
Following Phil's instructions, I keep ending up with the "Tugboat B".  What am I missing?

You're assuming that Phil correctly identified the knot!
Recall that more than one incorrectly called an Overhand a Figure of Eight,
on this very forum.  Granted, Phil had the benefit of both images from which
to discriminate & choose, but I'm not convinced he chose corretly--i.p., version
A as noted is prone to capsize, but not be hard to untie.
Somehow in Phil's instructions, the SPart became plural; his method matches
that by Brion, more or less.

But doing this in 2" DIAmeter rope?!!  Anyone got some around to test this?
(Jimbo, PABPRES?)  I only have some handy 1.5", and it's a challenge with that
to sustain the end-wrap (the rope's not super supple/flexible), and the length
of end needed for the size, well ... :  go knock yourself out, literally!

Otherwise, I'm with Brian:   knot-B ("B" is for "better") is what I end up with.

Quote

Elsewhere, one comment I read was that the "Tugboat Bowline" was only used to impress the girls on the dock.  ;D I am glad to hear from a Tugboat Master that it is also a useful and practical knot.  :)

(Sounds like confused priorities.  ::)  )

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 20, 2005, 10:41:38 PM
I should point out that Ashley's #1034 is a kin to these "Tugboat Bwl.s", which seems
rather stable (it's oriented somewhat like Knot-A); moreover, should it be loosEnough
to capsize, it will likely hold a favorable form like the Capstan knot.  And #1054,
the Farmer's Loop, can be put into a tugboat bwl-like orientation (with the
SPart being the left end in Ashley's image, end to the right).  --small world!?

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian_Grimley on June 27, 2005, 04:24:38 PM
Quote
Dan Lehmann wrote: And #1054, the Farmer's Loop, can be put into a tugboat bwl-like orientation (with the SPart being the left end in Ashley's image, end to the right).  


The Albert R. Mann Library, at Cornell University, has its "Core Historic Literature of Agriculture" on-line with public access: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/ .

Roehl, Louis M., Ropework, C1921, shows the "Farmer's Loop" tied with  "tugboat bwl-like orientation". He calls it the "Clevis Hitch".  It is here: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla;cc=chla;sid=7083762406c2b18fd3cc4be9aadd0c42;q1=clevis%20hitch;rgn=full%20text;idno=3107822;view=image;seq=0030 .

The "Farmer's Loop" is shown in Wert Frederick Alfred's, "A Laboratory Manual in Farm Machinery", 1917, starting here: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla;cc=chla;sid=d4cb1bcf944f930b04f72829e36758af;q1=Farmer%20s%20loop;rgn=full%20text;idno=2740843;view=image;seq=0137 .

Cheers - Brian
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on June 28, 2005, 09:24:33 PM
Two weeks ago I emailed Phil about his instructions for tying the Tug Bwl.  He had said that "Tugboat A" looks like the Tug Bwl, but his instructions seem to describe "Tugboat B," so I asked him for a clarification.  I haven't heard back from him yet, and I have not received any other replies from the dozens of emails that I sent to tug companies a few weeks ago...

So where does that leave us?  Do we have enough evidence to make a reasonable determination, or is this still an "open issue"?

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Brian_Grimley on June 29, 2005, 04:40:44 AM
Dave,

I think we have enough evidence to make a reasonable determination. However, it is your site; therefore, most importantly, do you!

Thank you for starting this fun and interesting thread.

Cheers - Brian.
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: knudeNoggin on June 30, 2005, 04:48:31 AM
Quote

So where does that leave us?  Do we have enough evidence to make a reasonable determination, or is this still an "open issue"?

I will echo these previous thoughts:
" you should show all FOUR versions (single & "double", i.e., of A & B),
and make the point explicitly.  Esp. as some tying methods might tend to
produce one or the other rather similarly.  And you can note that doubling
is an assurance of a decent/stable knot".

I still consider the issue open:  we've ONE user testimony, and that conflicts
with common sense (and internally--i.e., instructions conflict with the chosen
image).  We can hope for further information, still.  (Perhaps the one report
can be used to leverage information from others?)
Yes, though, in light of the tying method shown by B.Toss in his book CRA and the
same method seemingly reported by the tugboat captain, it seems that knot-B
makes sense for the name, and at least should be regarded as principal knot
of the contenders.  But there are good points to laying bare the associated knots
and their strengths/weaknesses, yes?  (even recently noted knots)

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: knot_tyer on June 30, 2005, 10:19:20 AM
...i am a big fan of the "tugboat bowline/perfection loop"...and i have known
of the many variations...PvdG wrote of these with excellent
diagrams in Het Knoopeknauwertje...but (again!)...isn't there
an IGKT committee that takes care of these questions?!...and if not, i would like to nominate you all to be on the committee!!...
...(ps...these are excellent knot photos!...etc...)..
Dan-Alaska
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 30, 2005, 10:57:22 PM
Quote
...i am a big fan of the "tugboat bowline/perfection loop"...and i have known
of the many variations...PvdG wrote of these with excellent
diagrams in Het Knoopeknauwertje...but (again!)...isn't there
an IGKT committee that takes care of these questions?!...and if not, i would like to nominate you all to be on the committee!!...
...(ps...these are excellent knot photos!...etc...)..
Dan-Alaska

It might be I whom you're thinking of, and the New-Knot Claims Assessment
Committee (NKCAC), but we're not all so much better at researching these sorts
of questions as this on-line group.

But, in any case, I'd sure love to see that PvdG article you refer to, and to open its
findings to others, here (& beyond)!
If you want to further explain Pieter's research here, fine; or you can mail a copy of
the article to me snail-wise (the IGKT Directory has my address).  It sounds wonderful.

Cheers,
--dl*  (Dan-Virginia)
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Willeke on June 30, 2005, 11:39:24 PM
Dan,
I have a scan of the said article on my computer, and if you give me your mail address I can mail it to you.
The texts are in Dutch but the conclusion on these pages is that all three are, at times, called tugboat bowline.

Willeke
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on July 02, 2005, 05:34:54 PM
For now, I decided to simply say on my website that there appear to be two main knots which are referred to as the Tugboat Bowline:
http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#PerfectionLoop

Dave

Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: knudeNoggin on July 02, 2005, 11:06:58 PM
Quote
For now, I decided to simply say on my website that there appear to be two main knots which are referred to as the Tugboat Bowline:
http://www.layhands.com/knots/Knots_SingleLoops.htm#PerfectionLoop

Dave



Thanks for your continued good efforts at bringing these knots into
awareness.  Your statement that "All three of these knots are much
more stable when the end of the rope is wrapped around a second time"
falls beside the truth:  in fact, the Perfection/Anglers Loop is no more
stable (it is amply stable as is), and the Knot-B is pretty good as is,
though one needs be mindful to set it well.
Thus, it would be preferable to advise AGAINST the use of Knot-A
on account of its instability, and note that its desireable form is that
called the "Dble.Dragon" by Paul Kruse.  A side comment to this can
be that the Knot-B gains some stability from a similar "doubling".

I'm worried that your presentation order imparts a natural bias for
the inferior knot-A.  You might then reverse the order (nevermind
what we've discussed among ourselves), giving the well-known
Perfection Loop topmost, then Knot-B, & last AND least, Knot-A.
From this order, advise to "double" things neatly flows to just-viewed
Knot-A, with note about applicability to Knot-B.

While on the page, I notice you echo Ashley's admonition against the
so-called "Left-handed Bowline".  Frankly, I think that both the name
and certainly the admonition should be lost:  the name unfortunately
leads to some confusion about what "left-handed" means (the nature of
handedness is often not explained nor well understood re knots in laid ropes),
and as his opinion comes w/o any explanation, it's unhelpful
(but as dogma).  It has been noted elsewhere that in fact some navy
favors this version; and it can, as noted e.g. by Clyde Soles's book,
be more secure in shock cord (discussed in this forum).
Some will prefer to have the end clear of the eye; some will fear
having a snaggable end outside.
What to call it, then?
Beyond "end on outside version" I don't know.

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 02, 2005, 11:17:51 PM
Thanks to Willeke, I've now seen the images from Piete van de Griend's
old article; he shows the Anglers Loop & knot-B, and apparently
invites one to find similar.

(-;
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Willeke on July 03, 2005, 01:34:07 AM
To stay with Pieter, he called one bowline an 'inside LH bowline', and an other an 'outside LH bowline'. Both are also available in RH versions. The inside or outside descibes whether the end is in the eye or outside and the LH and RH are for the way the initial loops are lefthanded or righthanded, or S or Z twist.

So knudeNoggin.
An inside bowline, the one prefered by the British (Royal) Navy or an outside bowline, the one prefered by the Dutch (Royal) Navy.

Willeke
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: knudeNoggin on July 03, 2005, 07:24:37 AM
Quote
To stay with Pieter, he called one bowline an 'inside LH bowline', and an other an 'outside LH bowline'.  ...  initial loops are lefthanded or righthanded, or S or Z twist.
An inside bowline, the one prefered by the British (Royal) Navy or an outside bowline, the one prefered by the Dutch (Royal) Navy.
Willeke

The interesting/puzzling thing about a loop is that it is both-handed,
as it turns away from the spiral that would result from pure-handedness.
As for the naval points, PvdG calls both of the two by naval names, but one is
Naval (Marine Paalsteek) & the other Merchant Naval (Koopvaardij Paalsteek)
["Survival of the Simplest", which I believe graced KM and is included in his
history of the Constrictor, Letter to Lester as an appendix]
Though he says that such names don't exist in literature.

I was hoping to get a better match to the terms that might be used to distinguish
the corresponding bends--Same-side & Opposite-side Sheet Bends.

*knudeNoggin*
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on July 03, 2005, 08:38:51 PM
Quote
Your statement that "All three of these knots are much more stable when the end of the rope is wrapped around a second time" falls beside the truth:  in fact, the Perfection/Anglers Loop is no more stable (it is amply stable as is), and the Knot-B is pretty good as is, though one needs be mindful to set it well. Thus, it would be preferable to advise AGAINST the use of Knot-A on account of its instability, and note that its desireable form is that called the "Dble.Dragon" by Paul Kruse.  A side comment to this can be that the Knot-B gains some stability from a similar "doubling".

The statement that Version-A and Version-B are much more stable in their "doubled" forms was actually based on yours and Dan Lehman's comments that "you should show all FOUR versions (single & "double", i.e., of A & B), and make the point explicitly. ... And you can note that doubling is an assurance of a decent/stable knot."  In looking back over this thread, I see that no-one ever suggested a doubled version of the Perfection Loop, so that must have been just me getting carried away...thanks for catching that!  I'll remove the doubled P.L.

Here's my concern.  People who have a lot of experience playing tennis or racquetball (for example) tend to develop "court sense," and people who have a lot of experience with knots probably tend to develop some "knot sense."  In other words, when an experienced climber sees Version-A for the first time, he will probably feel that he doesn't want to trust his life to it.  In contrast, the target audience of my website is the "average" person who maybe uses a rope a couple of times a year.  Without any "knot sense" to draw from, he would have no way of knowing or guessing whether Version-A is a stronger knot than, say, the Alpine Butterfly.  If he sees my website and tries out some knots, and a few months later he needs to use a rope for something, then in the case of the Tugboat I would hope that what stuck in his mind is that it should be doubled.  That was the reason for showing the two Tugboats and the P.L. and then giving the easy formula of "double them for stability."

But if the P.L. is "amply stable" without being doubled, I'm curious about how it compares with the doubled Version-A.  In other words, if the "average" person doesn't have the time or interest to learn a bunch of different knots for different applications, then would he benefit most from knowing the P.L. or the doubled Version-A (i.e. the Double Dragon)?  Or would Version-B (singled or doubled) be of more benefit as the one to stick with?  For those who enjoy learning more about knots, is it possible to differentiate these 3 knots by saying, "For these applications I would use the Perfection Loop, and for these applications I would use the Double Dragon, and for these applications I would use Version-B"? ???  So many questions, so little time!   ;D


Quote
I'm worried that your presentation order imparts a natural bias for the inferior knot-A.  You might then reverse the order (nevermind what we've discussed among ourselves), giving the well-known Perfection Loop topmost, then Knot-B, & last AND least, Knot-A. From this order, advise to "double" things neatly flows to just-viewed Knot-A, with note about applicability to Knot-B.

Then again, the original presentation order works as flowing from "worst" to "better" to "best"!  I'll try to clarify the order so that it is not implied that Version-A is best.


Quote
While on the page, I notice you echo Ashley's admonition against the so-called "Left-handed Bowline".  Frankly, I think that both the name and certainly the admonition should be lost:  the name unfortunately leads to some confusion about what "left-handed" means (the nature of handedness is often not explained nor well understood re knots in laid ropes), and as his opinion comes w/o any explanation, it's unhelpful (but as dogma).  It has been noted elsewhere that in fact some navy favors this version; and it can, as noted e.g. by Clyde Soles's book, be more secure in shock cord (discussed in this forum). Some will prefer to have the end clear of the eye; some will fear having a snaggable end outside.

Everything that I have seen in print or on the Web about the Left-Hand/Dutch/Cowboy Bwl has been essentially negative, although this is mainly because most of them are plagiarizing a single source!  :o  Today I have been Googling the Dutch Navy to find anything that they might say about the "Dutch Marine Bowline" (as it is sometimes called).  I found a list of websites and email addresses for Dutch frigates, subs, minehunters, torpedo vessels, etc. (even Dutch tugs!), but so far either the links don't work or else they're not in English.  I did find an English-language site with "news and data on all Dutch Navy vessels," so I sent them an email.  I guess for now I can simply say that some people have reservations about this knot, while others (such as the Dutch navy, although I haven't been able to verify that they actually use this knot) feel that it is superior to the standard bwl....

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Willeke on July 03, 2005, 11:01:58 PM
If the dutch have reservations about this knot it is because they use the same (English) books everone else does.

I will try a websearch later this week, now I am doing to many things at once as it is.

Willeke
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on July 04, 2005, 01:31:55 AM
OK, updated the website.

BTW, if Tugboat B is a better or more stable knot than Tugboat A, then is the "doubled" Tugboat B a better knot than the "doubled" Tugboat A (i.e. the Double Dragon)?

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: PaulKruse on August 18, 2005, 09:49:51 PM
All three are excellent knots that can be tied on a bight with just a couple flips of the wrist.  With a little practice, you can tie them in three seconds or less.  “B” is what I know as a Tugboat Bowline, but our riggers call it either the Fast Bowline or the Dragn’ Bowline.  The last name comes from a belief that it is not good for anything more than dragging on the ground.  Need to drag a log to the campfire?  Use this quick knot for this and similar non-critical applications.  Its main disadvantage is that it can be pulled out of form into an unstable configuration.

“A” is the same knot with an extra half twist.  I think it has already been correctly identified as an artillery loop.  I’ve never used it for anything, so I have no experience to speak from concerning it.

“C” is the same knot with the half twist in the opposite direction.  That makes it a Perfection Loop.  Very strong and very reliable, but it will jam into a pocketknife knot.  You will need a “rope wrench” to get it out.

“C” can also be tied by starting with a simple overhand slipknot.  If you don’t want it to jam, then double-wrap it.  It is amazing how many knots can start with an overhand slip.  Two of my favorites are the Alpine Butterfly and the Hunter Loop.  A slipped version of the Perfection Loop is very strong and reliable, and won’t jam.

A different Perfection Loop can also start out with a figure eight slipknot.  If you double wrap that, it is about the same strength as a figure eight loop.  This one can also be tied with a couple flips and twists of the wrist very quickly, and on the bight at that.

If you double-wrap “B” then you have what I’ve called the Double Dragon on these pages in the past.

It has been correctly pointed out that no one is going to use a Tugboat Bowline for a primary toe on a tugboat.  But you have a thousand other uses for non-critical loops when working on a tugboat, and this is a good knot for them.

Paul
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: PaulKruse on August 18, 2005, 09:52:53 PM
Sorry.  It looks like I had some formating problems with that last post.  Let's try again:

All three are excellent knots that can be tied on a bight with just a couple flips of the wrist.  With a little practice, you can tie them in three seconds or less.  B is what I know as a Tugboat Bowline, but our riggers call it either the Fast Bowline or the Dragn’ Bowline.  The last name comes from a belief that it is not good for anything more than dragging on the ground.  Need to drag a log to the campfire?  Use this quick knot for this and similar non-critical applications.  Its main disadvantage is that it can be pulled out of form into an unstable configuration.

A is the same knot with an extra half twist.  I think it has already been correctly identified as an artillery loop.  I’ve never used it for anything, so I have no experience to speak from concerning it.

C is the same knot with the half twist in the opposite direction.  That makes it a Perfection Loop.  Very strong and very reliable, but it will jam into a pocketknife knot.  You will need a “rope wrench” to get it out.

C can also be tied by starting with a simple overhand slipknot.  If you don’t want it to jam, then double-wrap it.  It is amazing how many knots can start with an overhand slip.  Two of my favorites are the Alpine Butterfly and the Hunter Loop.  A slipped version of the Perfection Loop is very strong and reliable, and won’t jam.

A different Perfection Loop can also start out with a figure eight slipknot.  If you double wrap that, it is about the same strength as a figure eight loop.  This one can also be tied with a couple flips and twists of the wrist very quickly, and on the bight at that.

If you double-wrap B then you have what I’ve called the Double Dragon on these pages in the past.

It has been correctly pointed out that no one is going to use a Tugboat Bowline for a primary toe on a tugboat.  But you have a thousand other uses for non-critical loops when working on a tugboat, and this is a good knot for them.


Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: DaveRoot on August 19, 2005, 05:25:44 PM
Quote
If you double-wrap B then you have what I've called the Double Dragon on these pages in the past.

Good to hear from you, Paul, seems like it's been awhile!

According to the original pictures you presented, isn't the Double Dragon a double-wrapped "Tugboat A" instead of a double-wrapped "Tugboat B" (referring to my pictures at the top of this thread)?


Also, I'm curious which is the best knot, in terms of strength/stability/security:  The double-wrapped "Tugboat A," the double-wrapped "Tugboat B," or the standard Perfection Loop (or the Figure-eight Perfection Loop which Paul described above).  Anyone have any thoughts or opinions??

Dave
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: PaulKruse on August 20, 2005, 12:12:05 AM
Dave:

The difference between A and B is very subtil.  One can even be dressed into the other.  Either one can be pulled under load into an unstabil configuration, which is why I won't use them for critical applications.  If you double wrap them, then that won't happen.  I dress the Double Draggon into the B configuration, and then double wrap it.

If you play with these knots a bit, you will find all sorts of other ways of dressing them, and also some interesting variations.  Some are very good.

Paul
Title: Re: Tugboat Bowline(s) and Perfection Loop
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 20, 2005, 09:09:31 AM
Quote
Dave:

The difference between A and B is very subtle.  One can even be dressed into the other.

That is one heck of a dressing!!
The completed knots, as shown by Dave in his rightmost images,
cannot be dressed into each other; they are distinct.  In B (for "Better"),
the end exits between the SPart and one leg of the eye, and is strongly
nipped to hold the other leg's turn around it; in A things are differently
configured, and no dressing will much help.  There is a dressing of B
in which the legs are crossed, which bears some resemblance to A.
(As was noted above in this discussion, by BrianG, A can be shaped into
the Artillery Loop; B cannot.)

--dl*
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