International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Chit Chat => Topic started by: Dan_Lehman on January 31, 2008, 07:17:18 PM

Title: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 31, 2008, 07:17:18 PM
It occurs to me that a worthwhile project to undertake in 2008,
whose completion could come fairly quickly,
is to construct an IGKT Improved Index of ABOK,
in which:

 1.  all citations were made (only) in terms of illustration numbers (not pg.#s),
and
 2.  all citations were checked (deleted/added, as appropriate).

Currently, one gets a page number from the Index and must then read
through the page hoping to find the particular item--this is a needlessly
bothersome task, when most pages have their text referenced by about
ten or so image/entry numbers (which numbers are in other ways part
of our knotting parlance).  There are also cases where the reference
is wrong entirely or by degree (e.g., one page off), and sometimes I
think we'll find references that should be made yet are not (that's a
value judgement--but, hey, it's us who value such things!).

Community checking/vetting of the III should be easy, since one is
following such space-focused citations.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: squarerigger on February 01, 2008, 02:05:05 AM
Hi Dan,

I take it this is using the ABOK British version after amendment by IGKT's Geoffrey Budworth?  This is the one with Bernard Cutbush's frame on the cover jacket, reprinted, copyright 2000 by G. Budworth.

SR
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 01, 2008, 05:48:34 AM
No, we'd use every version (and esp. the older, which should be most
in need of help).  It isn't that much of a change with the revised one(s),
is it?  (Where one's copy is okay/fixed, one merely nods; otherwise,
there's some annotation worth noting.)  In every case, there's need
for the by-fig.#-vs-pg.# change.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Tom on February 05, 2008, 12:06:22 PM
Sounds like a wholly commendable project to me - sign me up!
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on February 07, 2008, 11:42:27 PM
A Good Idea methinks- with 476 members online and maybe a third of those with an ABOK ? I'm guessing here ! Only a few pages each to do the job! Will you direct volunteers to take discrete sections and thereby avoid duplicated effort? I'll do a few if you let me know which pages.

Regrds

Peter H
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 15, 2008, 04:58:34 PM
Only a few pages each to do the job! Will you direct volunteers to take discrete sections and thereby avoid duplicated effort? I'll do a few if you let me know which pages.

Not so much section- but Index-directed, methinks!
I.e., the primary check & change is on what IS there, in the Index;
and the simple task is to verify that (implicit in the looking), and to convert
the page reference into an image-# reference.

The harder part, but one we should accept as information arises in even
haphazard use of the book, is to supplement the Index with any missed
citations, such as they're found.  But a rigorous check of this, which to my
mind entails deliberate reading straight through the text and repeatedly
checking whether index-able items are in fact indexed, isn't something
I'm proposing here.  But, why not accept any such suggestions as they
arise; the goal being a more useful Index, not caring to clinging to just
its historical state (which in any case is preserved in numerous copies).
(Actually, having a #-based Index should help with any effort to improve
the overall citations, as some citation for "p.173" might become equated
to "#nnn4, #nnn5" and later be enlarged to cite also #nnn9:  if one had
only a page reference, finding the information in one spot might stop
one from looking further; but with particular image-#s, any information
elsewhere will stand out in need of similar citation.)

So, to commence, either of you two (et al.) can just post a notice here
"I'm starting with 'A' ", and the next reviewer can volunteer for another
letter (Index "section").  (wow, "B" is a whopper!)  Completed lists for
each letter can be posted here for others to verify (and maybe expand).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: DerekSmith on February 17, 2008, 03:58:43 PM
When I tie knots, I can do it one of two ways -- the hard way or the easy way.

The hard way is to tie the knot in my minds eye.  A challenge, but sometimes necessary when my 'twiddling string' has been appropriated for some other task.  The easy way of course is to take up a piece of cord and tie the knot in physical 3D and hold, rotate and inspect it in physical reality in my hands.

Does this have anything to do with the proposed project at hand?  Well, perhaps it might act as a propmt to consider if there is an easy way and a hard way of using ABoK. because I think there exists an easy way which eliminates the problems many of us have encountered and which Dan has highlighted here.

As I have discovered, the hard way (but none the less a most enjoyable way) of using ABoK is to buy a copy and try to read it through a number of times and to use PostIt notes to annotate and keep corrections.  Over time and practice you might learn to flip automatically to the section that today you want to refer to, but chances are that like most of us you will be restricted to using the quite limited index which without question could do with an overhaul.

Or you could use the easy way -- buy a copy of ABoK.pdf and unlock it.  Once you have done this, you will never need the index or PostIt notes again, because the whole book, word by word is indexed through the search facility.  Better still, you can add your own personalised bookmarks, as many and as detailed as you care for and you can make as many notes or corrections as your heart desires and of course search any of these as well, should the need arrise.  A 100% index that is always up to date and 100% correct.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the physical book with all its anachronistic issues and mistakes will fairly quickly become something you pick up for the love of it - a bit like the pleasure of tying a knot in ones minds eye.  But for day to day reference I am confident that paper index is dead and the pdf 100% 'body index' will prevail for all practical uses and it will not matter that the paper index is wrong or lacking.

But then, the world of knots teaches me to take nothing at first sight and regularly surprises me, so maybe I will be wrong on this too.  I will watch with interest.

Derek
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Fairlead on February 17, 2008, 04:49:21 PM
Derek,
ABOK is already in Searchable PDF format and available on the Internet

Gordon
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: DerekSmith on February 19, 2008, 01:42:16 PM
Hi Gordon,

Yes, that is exactly what I meant when I said :--

Or you could use the easy way -- buy a copy of ABoK.pdf and unlock it. 

Derek
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 12, 2008, 09:19:36 PM
The original pdf i have figured opened up to be able to add notes; but; it was also not produced with the OCR function on; so it can't be searched.

The 2nd version of same, was maid with the OCR engine on, can be searched; but the encryption is 128bit; and not as easily sidestepped.

It would be nice to have both functions, search/ editability of the Optical Character Recognition, and able to highlight and note; but presently have to run them side by side or some other scheme to be able to do both.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: turks head 54 on March 13, 2008, 04:42:54 AM
Where could you find a PDF copy of ABOK?

TH54
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 20, 2008, 06:14:54 AM
Instead of seeing the initial results to the indexing project from Tom & Peter,
I feel a lull has beset their interest?!  Surely the As and Bs could be knocked
off in a month plus.

What's up?

 ::)
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: oceanplats on March 20, 2008, 01:42:52 PM
well well ,I did have to go look in the bookcase,so i pulled the tome out,the smells of
salt
tar
blood
and someone has a project going on?
god luck mate ,got my 72 bible in 75.
So most of you here havnt been to sea?
Ash did!!
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 20, 2008, 05:21:53 PM
The expected results to be seen here can l00k like this:

ADJUSTABLE BEND, 266#1472
ADJUSTABLE BOWSTRING KNOT, 32#152, 188#1030
ADJUSTABLE GIRDLE, x331=>330#2031 [text entry on 330, image 331]
ADJUSTABLE HITCH 32#157, x70=>71#431, 304#1800
ADJUSTABLE JAM HITCH, 325#1994
ADJUSTABLE LOOP, 187#1021 {et al. here, and elsewere?}
Adjustable swing, 76#468[NOT really], {128#726 really!), 590#3833
Against the lay, 157#854 [this MUST occur elsewhere!]
Alston's BOWLINE KNOT, 186#1015
Alston's FRENCH SHROUD KNOT, 277#1570
Alternating knots in lanyards, 136#764?
Alternative way of sticking a SHORT SPLICE, 429#2647
AMERICAN CRINGLE, 467#2848
American whipping, 546#3444
...

---------

Note that I kept the pg.#s; maybe they should be omitted (here,
at least)?  Note also that I found some mis-citations (wrong pg#),
which I've marked with a prefix 'x' on the pg.#.  And one citation
was missing (got only via indirect reference), which I've put in
delimited by '{ }' curly brackets.

Some cases suggest that a more helpful Index can be made:
where some citation points to a place that only refers to some
other place where the actual information is given--e.g., 32#152
for the Adjustable Bowstring Knot, which refers one to the later
place, for #1030.  Perhaps primary citations (where information
is given) should be put first, and subsidiary ones are put within
parenthesis).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Fairlead on March 20, 2008, 07:02:40 PM
So most of you here havnt been to sea?
Ash did!!
Having been to sea is irrelavant - I served 40 years in the RN - yes I slept in a hammock for the first 9 too - but I don't suppose I used more than a dozen knots professionally in all that time.

Gordon
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on March 30, 2008, 11:46:08 PM
Instead of seeing the initial results to the indexing project from Tom & Peter,
I feel a lull has beset their interest?!  Surely the As and Bs could be knocked
off in a month plus.

What's up?

 ::)

Well Dan , having seen the comments re the ABOK.pdf file I think the problem may have been solved already- I haven't seen the pdf yet but if anyone knows where to find it .......?

If it doesn't come to light soon then it's back to plan A but I'm reluctant to re-invent the wheel if it's already out there in a pdf file

Cheers,

Peter
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 31, 2008, 07:34:59 PM
Well Dan , having seen the comments re the ABOK.pdf file I think the problem may have been solved already
- I haven't seen the pdf yet but if anyone knows where to find it .......?

If it doesn't come to light soon then it's back to plan A but I'm reluctant to re-invent the wheel if it's already out there in a pdf file

That's an unfortunate affect of some well-meaning meddling, eh?   :D

Look, (1) the pdf file does NOT really fully address the issue, as in making the
conceived improved Index, we have a good chance to segregate wheat from chaff,
as I noted above (i.e., put in parenthesis all citations of term that are really no more
than that--which will add nothing from reading them),
(2) the pdf file is HUGE, and not so broadly available and obtainable to all (not by
my phoneline, methinks), and
(3) hardly all of those who could benefit from the Improved Index are going to be
using computers vice hardcopy Ashley anyway, for various reasons.

So at most one could cast this pdf conjecture as a case of the Perfect being an
Enemy of the Good, and I'd like to avoid that.  (Besides, it gives a nice reason to
go more carefully through & into ABOK than one is likely to do otherwise,
finding all sorts of entertainment!)

I say, stop waiting for Godot,
let's Go!

 ;)
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 05, 2008, 07:48:19 PM

(2) the pdf file is HUGE, and not so broadly available and obtainable to all (not by
my phoneline, methinks), and
(3) hardly all of those who could benefit from the Improved Index are going to be
using computers vice hardcopy Ashley anyway, for various reasons.

So at most one could cast this pdf conjecture as a case of the Perfect being an
Enemy of the Good, and I'd like to avoid that.  (Besides, it gives a nice reason to
go more carefully through & into ABOI than one is likel to do otherwise,
finding all sorts of entertainment!)

I say, stop waiting for Godot,
let's Go!

 ;)

Ok I'm convinced. Here's my first offering, put up for comment and amendment by you all. Took a long time to get this far, but I hope it makes sense-----

Preliminary ABOK index project entry for the ?Sheet Bend?.  This index should be regarded as a ?Wiki? style entry, peer reviewed and editable by all.

Knot Name and #number for main entry shown in bold type: e.g. Sheet Bend #1431

Primary forms of the knot including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot shown thus : page no.#ABOK no.    i.e. ppp#aaaa

Secondary forms  eg double sheet bend, weavers knot etc. where the search  term is used shown thus : (ppp#aaaa).  Other secondary forms may be found where the search term is not used. Any such found can be added later.

References to the knot in other entries shown thus : [ppp#aaaa]

References to the knot in the general text, page no. only shown thus: {ppp}

Where text and diagram occur on facing pages shown thus: pp/pp#aa.

Where several #no.s on a page refer to the same knot shown thus: pp#aa/aa/aa/aa/

Combinations of the above may be used where appropriate.

Entries ordered by page number. Glossary and Index entries shown thus <ppp, ppp.>

Sheet Bend #1431: 9#1(2), {11}, 16/17#64/65/66/67[68], 18#72/78, [35#177], [46#253], [54#335], [55#336], (64#402), (78#485/488), (79#490/492), [188#1034.5], 222#1223, [258#1410], (259#1418), [260#1424/1425a], 262#1431(1432)1433(1435)1436(1437)(1438), (263#1440), (264#1449), 265#1461, 266#1437, 270#1497/1501, 272#1522/1523, {273}, 274#1550, [316#1900], (324#1988), 324#1990, 326/327#2005, 412#2562,
<597-Barbers Knot, 602-Sailors Knot, 610-Double SB, 613-Left-hand SB, 615-Right-hand SB, 616-SB, 618-Toggled SB, 619-Triple SB, Tucked SB.>

so if this takes off, how do you propose we store and make available the results?

Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 05, 2008, 11:43:24 PM
P.S. now working on the Bowline, and will continue on with the BIG SIX unless someone beats me to it!
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: DerekSmith on April 06, 2008, 08:20:04 AM
Could I offer one amend to the sheet bend list

(262,1434) the double sheet bend.

Derek
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on April 06, 2008, 10:01:14 PM
That is a lot of energy and time, Thanks!

i like to track a Bowline as a sheetbend to self to form fixed eye.  Then tracing how the forces change under the same load as the hitch becomes a half hitch etc.

Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 08, 2008, 01:16:30 AM
Could I offer one amend to the sheet bend list

(262,1434) the double sheet bend.

Derek

Sure thing Derek, how did I miss that ?? here 'tis  :)

Sheet Bend #1431: 9#1(2), {11}, 16/17#64/65/66/67[68], 18#72/78, [35#177], [46#253], [54#335], [55#336], (64#402), (78#485/488), (79#490/492), [188#1034.5], 222#1223, [258#1410], (259#1418), [260#1424/1425a], 262#1431(1432)1433(1434)(1435)1436(1437)(1438), (263#1440), (264#1449), 265#1461, 266#1437, 270#1497/1501, 272#1522/1523, {273}, 274#1550, [316#1900], (324#1988), 324#1990, 326/327#2005, 412#2562,
<597-Barbers Knot, 602-Sailors Knot, 610-Double SB, 613-Left-hand SB, 615-Right-hand SB, 616-SB, 618-Toggled SB, 619-Triple SB, Tucked SB.>

Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 08, 2008, 01:25:21 AM
That is a lot of energy and time, Thanks!


You're welcome TS, and thanks for all the help  ;)

i like to track a Bowline as a sheetbend to self to form fixed eye.  Then tracing how the forces change under the same load as the hitch becomes a half hitch etc.


mmmm- don't quite follow your train of thought here TS, could you  explain a little more ?  Thanks, Peter
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: turks head 54 on April 08, 2008, 05:08:41 AM

[/quote]so if this takes off, how do you propose we store and make available the results?[/quote]

As an answer to your question Dan I could make a webpage on Blogger
to list the new and imporved index.

Th54
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on April 08, 2008, 01:55:27 PM
i think this would be a good one for The Knot Wiki Project (http://igkt.pbwiki.com/)
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 09, 2008, 02:05:25 AM
I've put the first entry on the new wiki set up by Derek Smith on http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex - see what you think--
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 10, 2008, 06:50:06 PM
Here let me reformat PWH's fine articulation of his selected notation for the Improved Index.

name #aaaa ::> Knot Name and number for main entry: e.g. Sheet Bend #1431

pg#aaaa ::> Primary forms of the knot including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot.

(pg#aaaa) ::> Secondary forms  e.g. double sheet bend & weavers knot, where the search term is used.
Other secondary forms may be found where the search term is not used. Any such found can be added later.

[pg#aaaa] ::> References to the knot in other entries.

{pg} ::> References to the knot in the general text, page no. only.

pg/pg#aaaa ::> Where text and diagram occur on facing pages.

pg@aaaa/aaaa/.../aaaa/ ::> Where several #s on a page refer to the same knot.

Combinations of the above may be used where appropriate.

There were at the bottom of the msg. above some citations using the ' < ... > ' delimiters,
for at least some occurrences within the Glossary!?

"Entries ordered by page number"  = "ordered by prg.# ?"
(How could it differ?  Well, of two competitor's, they might be on same pg, one later/earlier;
of tied in 1st occurrence, separated in later one.)

 :)
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on April 11, 2008, 02:47:41 AM
Looks like y'all have something brewing!

Wish i had more time.

i think it would be more useful; and gear to a much larger audience (as a prototype); if there was some visual aid(and in a table).  Being a knot cypher wiki; i think it should have at least a knot cypher on the page if not a picture.

If you are real hard up; you can use any of mine Basic Knots (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Basic%20Knots-New.htm)  or..  More Simpleness (http://www.mytreelessons.com/images/Simple%20Bends.JPG) or anything else; even just as place holders to lay out the format etc.

i always wanted to continue all that stuff; and the Flash Animations (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/knots/Strangle.swf); but when the Hard Drive crashed; i lost a lot of Flash projects; including the pre-maid pieces of lacings; t assemble them and blocks of code to make knots; now i have to find time to start alllllllllllllllllllll over!




This is what i was talking about de-scribing knots off of similar constructions and then understanding the parts and their mechanical functions better.  Sheet Bend to Bowline (http://www.mytreelessons.com/images/Bowline%20to%20SheetBend.JPG).  Now i more properly see and name the Sheet as converting it's Hitch into a Half Hitch to make Bowline/Sheet Bend to self to form eye.  Then also make similar sense out of Anchor to self to form eye is Strangle/Noose whatever; Clove to self is Buntline; then try to understand the mechanics in them; by compairing properties between similar lacings.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 15, 2008, 02:19:08 PM
Here let me reformat PWH's fine articulation of his selected notation for the Improved Index.

name #aaaa ::> Knot Name and number for main entry: e.g. Sheet Bend #1431

pg#aaaa ::> Primary forms of the knot including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot.

(pg#aaaa) ::> Secondary forms  e.g. double sheet bend & weavers knot, where the search term is used.
Other secondary forms may be found where the search term is not used. Any such found can be added later.

[pg#aaaa] ::> References to the knot in other entries.

{pg} ::> References to the knot in the general text, page no. only.

pg/pg#aaaa ::> Where text and diagram occur on facing pages.

pg@aaaa/aaaa/.../aaaa/ ::> Where several #s on a page refer to the same knot.

Combinations of the above may be used where appropriate.

There were at the bottom of the msg. above some citations using the ' < ... > ' delimiters,
for at least some occurrences within the Glossary!?

"Entries ordered by page number"  = "ordered by prg.# ?"
(How could it differ?  Well, of two competitor's, they might be on same pg, one later/earlier;
of tied in 1st occurrence, separated in later one.)

 :)

Thanks Dan , it's a lot clearer in this format. I shall apply this to the wiki as well.

The '  < ... >  ' delimiters include all the references I found to the knot or other forms in the glossary and index just for completeness and in case following those takes you in some new direction ..... If there are more that I missed please let me know.


Ordered by page number - could have differed by putting all the primary forms first followed by secondary forms , then referential entries and so on - I felt that would mean too much 'to-ing and fro-ing' for someone wanting to look at all the references, so opted for 'by page number' instead. It's simple enough I think, to pick out only those you really want from the current order? 

Cheers, Peter H  :)

Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 21, 2008, 04:25:48 AM
Ordered by page number - could have differed by putting all the primary forms first followed by secondary forms , then referential entries and so on - I felt that would mean too much 'to-ing and fro-ing' for someone wanting to look at all the references, so opted for 'by page number' instead. It's simple enough I think, to pick out only those you really want from the current order? 

Oh, thanks, I see.
Hmmm, would one really want to have to hunt through the arguably not-so-obvious
differences in notation in order to locate the most (only, in most purposes!) meaningful
occurrences?  I think not.
I think that the principle uses of the Index will be to learn about the entity in a direct,
obvious sense; only someone doing some more pedantic, who-knows-what-purpose
search will care that in prg. #1537 (say) there is a side comment "like the Sheet Bend"
or "... along with the Sheet bend", methinks.  There is some merit to having the key
citations forward; and maybe to having a predicatable, set order of all, which I think
goes some way to help the different classifcations of citation be recognized.  (For
otherwise, it is they--the sorts of references--that come in a back'n'forth order.)
I.e., giving the information thus:
Here is detailed info directly:  #47, #276, #277, #1820
here is more coincidental mention: ....
here is ...

I think is a good presentation, got essentially by reference-type ordering.
Ordering by pagination seems more mountain skyline peak'n'valley jumping.
--and having to visually discriminate between graphic symbols '[','(', '{', ... .
(This is one advantage to the Im.In. over pdf Searching:  presenting
a value assessment of the citation!)

How do others think an Improved Index will look?

??

 ???
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 25, 2008, 12:52:49 AM
Well Dan , I was in two minds about how to order the thing, and it's probably because I am pedantic that I opted for the pagination with symbols version!  :-) Don't knock it tho- pedantic is good in some areas- radio voice technique for example, and it's probably only pedants could be bothered to do an IM.IN. at all! So some degree of pedantry kind of goes with the territory ;-)  Nonetheless if any body else would like to vote on how would be best for the majority I'm happy to concur- in fact I'm almost convinced already - those multitudinous brackets do get a bit fuzzy after a while! When I get some time I might put up both versions to see what you all think- or A.N.Other could do it if you want to?
Cheers, Peter
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 29, 2008, 10:37:07 PM
Hi All,
As promised, here is the "ordered by relevance" version of the index for the sheet bend. I have to agree Dan that it's a lot easier to use (and produce) than my first attempt! This along with the Bowline and Reef or Square Knot will shortly be appearing on the wiki at http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex . Anybody's welcome to join the fun and do your favourite knot or three- there's plenty to choose from ! Special bonus points for finding any missed citations on these or any other entries.

Regards to All,

Peter

Sheet Bend #1431

Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #1, #64, #65, #66, #72, #78, #402, #403, #1431, #1433, #1436, #1473, #1550, #2005, #2562.

Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #2, #67, #177, #485, #488, #490, #492, #1432, #1434, #1435, #1437, #1438, #1461, #1501.

Practical applications: #253, #1223, #1418, #1497, #1522, #1523, #1988, #1990.

References in other entries: #68, #335, #336, #1034.5, #1410, #1424, #1425a, #1440, #1449, #1900.

References in the general text: Page no.,Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p273m&b.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: DerekSmith on April 30, 2008, 11:37:04 AM
A simple change, yet such a vast improvement in clarity and usability, this now promises to be a valuable index.

As an index, is it intended to include pg No.s for the references or will the user be expected to look up the ABoK No. in the ABoK index to find the page to look at?

I notice Peter that you have been getting to grips with editing the wiki.  Could I suggest that a little of this ingenuity be spent thinking about how best to structure the information on the wiki.  Now the individual knot information structure is being rationalised, we can expect to start to see the results posted onto the wiki, and before long hopefully there will be a number of knots indexed there, so some thought as to how they will be presented would be valuable.  Will each knot be given its own page linked to a master index on the front page? or will all the results simply be listed in one huge page?

I have put a sample knot page together for the Sheet Bend here http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/Sheet+Bend (http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/Sheet+Bend)

Derek
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on April 30, 2008, 12:20:17 PM
Thanks Derek,

Re page numbers, Do you think they are needed in this index- it seems easy enough to open the ABOK almost anywhere and find the #number directly? Admittedly some of the low numbers are a bit scattered in the text so maybe for them- but once into the real 'meat' the numbers flow pretty well. What do others think?  Also re "will the user be expected to look up the ABoK No. in the ABoK index"- my ABOK has no reference to the #number in the index at all, it's page numbers only there- I envisage people doing as above when using the improved 'Super Index'- just diving in at any page and locating by #number only. Open to suggestions tho --

Regrds, Peter
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: DerekSmith on April 30, 2008, 04:10:24 PM
Gees - my myopic mind.  I forgot that the whole book is indexed by ABoK No.

Don't mind me, I'm slow but catch up eventually.

Keep up the good work.

Derek
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on May 05, 2008, 12:40:07 AM
Good Morning All,

Hope this finds you all well and happy, and ready for some work! You can find a couple more entries on the Index here at http://knotcyphers.pbwiki.com/ABoK-WikiIndex .

At the rate of progress so far I doubt if I will complete the job before I go to meet the Great KnotMeister, (hopefully not for another 50 years or so) so please, please think about whether you can do an entry or two? Many hands make light work and all that- I think we've just about got the format right now but all suggestions are welcome. It's easy enough once you get into it, and if you need any tools or advice to get started please contact me or Derek.

Yours,

Peter H.

Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on May 20, 2008, 11:10:23 PM
Hi Folks,

Thought I'd put the listings up here as well as the wiki seeing as this topic seems to have died. Did I upset you all with my "Pedant Rant" I wonder? If so - Sorry Dan et all. Didn't mean to offend.

So here they are- I really would appreciate some comments and advice as to omissions and errors, or suggestions for improvements, or even to say how wonderful it is.  ;)

Here they are -

Cheers, Peter H

Bowline #1010
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #71, #1010, #1014, #1015, #1716, #1783, #1787, #1788, #2549, #2550, #2551, #2586, #2587.

Secondary forms eg. Double B, B on a bight etc: #1011, #1012, #1013, #1016, #1034.5, #1057, #1058, #1072, #1074, #1075, #1080, #1081, #1082, #1083, #1087, #1117, #1137, #1848, #2564.

Practical applications of the knot in its various forms: With the Bowline, its original use is so integral to its name and nature that I have included such instances in bold even where the bowline knot itself is not used.
#155, #157, #158, #162, #163, #202, #265, #266, #267, #287, #332, #338, #407, #471, #1226, #1455, #1475, #1476, #1499, #1507, #1508, #1509, #1514, #1544, #1724, #1726, #1842, #1846, #1849? #1850, #1853, #1861, #1882, #1916, #1917, #1926, #2052, #2066, #2071, #2080, #2090, #2160, #2168, #2191, #3826.

References in other entries: #143, #1024, #1078, #1079, #1084, #1114, #1138, #1431, #1845, #1874, #1987, #2067, #2608, #2612, #2837, #2842, #2843, #3407, #3434.

References in the general text: page no. top middle or bottom:

p39b, p185-several, p193t, p203b.

Reef or Square knot #1204, #1205
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #74, #75, #76, #77, #460, #462, #487, #1204, #1205, #1441, #1547, #1549, #2575.

Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #1211, #1212, #1217, #1218.

Practical applications: #226, #263, #390, #404, #405, #447, #476, #664, #1267, #1402, #1403, #1404, #1513, #1757, #1893, #1899, #2064, #2076, #2086, #2096, #2098, #2104, #2114, #2209, #2402, #2406, #2412, #2413, #2449, #2552, #2796, #2797, #2856, #3096, #3126, #3130, #3267, #3271, #3379, #3413, #3439, #3444, #3448, #3449, #3452, #3458, #3498, #3773, #3799-3812.

References in other entries: #47, #80-81, #185, #186, #251, #413, #449-450-451, #461, #463, #1168, #1207, #1419, #1425a, #1480, #2012, #2523, #2688.

References in the general text: Page no. & Top, Middle, Bottom. : p68t, p75t, p220t, p273m, p399- A whole chapter on square knotting.
 

Sheet Bend #1431
Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #1, #64, #65, #66, #72, #78, #402, #403, #1431, #1433, #1436, #1473, #1550, #2005, #2562.

Secondary forms e.g. double sheet bend, weavers knot etc: #2, #67, #177, #485, #488, #490, #492, #1432, #1434, #1435, #1437, #1438, #1461, #1501.

Practical applications: #253, #1223, #1418, #1497, #1522, #1523, #1988, #1990.

References in other entries: #68, #335, #336, #1034.5, #1410, #1424, #1425a, #1440, #1449, #1900.

References in the general text: Page no.,Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p273m&b.

Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on June 04, 2008, 10:52:49 PM
Clove Hitch #1176 to #1180 and #1773 to #1779.

Primary forms including odd or trick tyings that result in the same knot: #11, #53, #1176 to #1180,  #1773 to #1779, #2541 to #2548

Secondary forms:

Practical applications: #149, #198, #201, #204, #212, #262, #315, #318?, #346, #368, #400, #421, #432, #437, #441, #442, #443, #444, #445, #467, #506, #1161, #1229, #1245, #1270, #1271, #1272, #1273, #1275, #1276, #1670, #1671, #1672, #1739, #1805, #1814, #1869, #1887, #1998, #2040, #2079, #2102, #2128, #2149, #2150, #2159, #2162, #2180, #2825, #3038, #3039, #3097, #3123, #3177, #3322, #3331, #3435, #3436, #3437, #3782, #3787, #3792, #3799

Fancy Work:  #2412, #2486, #2501, #2507, #2509, #2516, #2620

Other Knots started with a Clove Hitch: #576, #1034, #1092, #1140, #1693, #2000, #2052

References in other entries: #48, #197, #244, #355, #390, #1268, #1728/9, #2011, #2088, #3095, #3098, #3323, #3390

References in the general text: Page no. & Top, Middle, Bottom. : p11b, p213title;m, p283b, p301b, p302t, p407b
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on July 18, 2008, 11:15:06 PM
Hi Everybody,

As you can tell this is taking a long time to get anywhere. I would appreciate some feedback so I know if it's worth carrying on.

What do you think of the show so far? Is it of any use to you? Is the present format OK, or could it be better? Would you like to help?

Answers on a posting please to this forum.

PwH.


Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Lynn on September 26, 2008, 04:10:00 PM
Hi

I'm the one that's been plugging away with ABOKs.  I've been tying the knots and putting them on index cards with the "knot name and number".  I am realizing how many knots have no name and are compilations of other knots in one order or another. 
Do you have access to an ABOK on line that you can do searches for certain words?  Going page by page is a Herculean task.  And it seem Mr. Ashley does a lot of "similar to knot 'such and such' " or "looks like knot 'such and such' ".  How are you handling those?  I guess in the bottom part "other references".

I really think that this is helpful.  Because in my earlier days I never used this book because there were so many places to look to figure out one knot.  If I had I probably would have found many of the answers to my questions.  For example: The True-Lover's Knot, Diamond Knot, Japanese Knot and Butterfly Knots seemed to have been tied a different way in each book.  And this summer when I was teaching "Knots 101" at the club, I want to find as many ways to teach the bowline and the clove hitch as possible.

Thanks for your efforts.  I'd be glad to help when I get finished with my self appointed task of ABOK.  I'm skipping some of the really decorative knots that must be tied on the cork board.  I do a few and then move on to the next chapter.  I'm into Chapter 12 now.

Lynn
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Sweeney on September 26, 2008, 05:18:30 PM
I am sure that this is a most useful exercise and the sort of information collated so far shows just how useful it will be. I do have a reservation about organising the information and making it available electronically. Ideally the data should be organised into records such that the user can extract the information to suit them - this probably means that the number of records required would be well in excess of the number of knots in Ashley but it can be started and tested with one knot (eg the bowline) and built from there over time - it's also easier to correct and update in this form. I haven't as yet looked at a practical way of organising the info - a spreadsheet is probably as good a tool as any for prototyping but I do think it would be useful spending time looking at data management as well as the actual data itself.

Happy to help in any way I can (I do know more about data management than I do knot tying but unfortunately that's not saying much!)

Since posting this I've thought some more about the issue and therefore added this bit (the above is a bit cryptic perhaps). Although presentation is important this comes at the end rather than the beginning - although it's vital to know what you're aiming to provide. The cross references etc will fall out of an analysis of Ashley automatically if you record the basic knot data in a simple form - clearly there has been a lot of effort expended so far but as progess is made it may become very difficult to sustain ie you can read forward to where a clove hitch is repeated or used as the basis or start of another knot but when you index the later knot how do you refer back to the origin without a lot of effort again? I appreciate that this may still be as clear as mud but rather than confuse the issue any further I'll await comments.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Lynn on October 03, 2008, 03:04:46 PM

Do you have access to an ABOK on line that you can do searches for certain words? 
I recently discovered an online version of ABOK.  I have since converted most of it to a "word document".  I also converted it to a searchable .pfd file.  I'm planning to use this for my own referencing only, but if I can be of any help in searching certain names or knots, let me know.  I've been working on this all week and must get back to life at hand.  Boy spell checker went crazy with this task; I guess when this was written there were more compound word, like "sailmaker, jamproof and lacemaking" not to mention all of the sailing terminology.
Lynn
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on October 03, 2008, 07:58:20 PM
Hi Lynn & Sweeney et All

Yes  I do have PDF version of ABOK courtesy of one who shall remain nameless for legal reasons. I also own a hardback paper copy ( had it for years)  so I don't feel guilty about the PDF. I would be unsure about sharing the file with anyone who doesn't already own the book as I think it may infringe copyright? Are there any leagle eagles out there can tell us about that?

 Fantastic work Lynn, I couldn't find it online myself! You've now got the tools to help with this index project if you wish, it is too much for anyone (well, me anyway) to attempt alone, so if you can help that would be most encouraging.

Sweeney- I'm very interested in what you can do with data records- I know almost nothing about the subject beyond that they exist!! Please tell me more?

As ever, anyone want to help? Just a few knots each will see it off, all the book for one or two people is too much to even attempt. How about it Dan?

Regards, Peter H
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Sweeney on October 04, 2008, 08:58:46 AM
Hi Peter

I'll try and keep this short and non-techie. A data record is a structured set of information. If it related to a person it might contain name, gender, marital status, date of birth, address, phone, e-mail etc. A collection of these records on a computer enables selection of people by age for example or where they live from postcode (or equivalent) - mailing lists are a typical example. With Ashley one could take all knots considered relevant (ie it may be sensible to exclude the complex fancy knots at least in the first pass), and record the following:

Knot number
Name*
Original knot entry number (for such as a clove hitch which appears many times)
Type (from a predetermined list to make it searchable eg hitch, bend but not restricted to a 'purist' view!)
Purpose (as this number in Ashley)
Knot no it starts with
Variation from standard knot (text - add anything)
Comments (again text)

I must stress that this is only a sample to explain what you might do but from these details you can, (in no particular order):

reorder the list in any order eg name then number;
find any knot by number or name*;
extract a group of knots such as the 'Knot no it starts with' or the knot type;
transfer the data to a word processor or other program in a form for printing (needs some work but is not that difficult or time consuming as long as ambition is kept in
check);
add more detail to the individual records over time.

One plus point is that many people can type part of the data each with a brief guide as to what to do (you don't need any particular software - even Windows Notepad would do) and send it to a file administrator for building the records file and any simple editing eg obvious spelling errors. Later corrections/additions are easy for one or more administrators.

A final point  - over time new knots could be added to the list as long as diagrams etc they were available from a consistent source eg the IGKT website and number say 5000 upwards to separate then clearly from Ashley - a (very) long term aim I would think.

Hope this helps.

Barry

*Footnote - one knot may have many names but the easiest solution is to add the same number several times with each name and a "Duplicate" field with a "Y" to aid searching no other details are needed as they are shown against the first occurence of the number (identiifiable because 'Duplicate' has "N" in it). Which name is considered the 'original' is not worth agonising over as they are all there.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on December 21, 2008, 01:59:12 PM
Here's the latest. Why the sheepshank? Well why not? It just so happens I wanted a variant ( the sword knot) for a shoulder strap for my ditty bag. Not at all a traditional ditty bag, actually a modified electricians tool bag/bucket, but I quite like it.

 The Sheepshank, FKA shepshanke or sheeps feete (p207)

Primary forms of the sheepshank #1152, #1153, to #1166, a whole series of SS.
 
Practical Work #202, #238, #1088, #3093,

Fancy Work  #2297, #2298, #2299, #2432,

Trick tyings #2566, #2567, #2568,

Knots starting with : none

Mentioned in other entries #172, #366, #1146, #1873, #2428,

Mentioned in the general text   p11b, p74b, p195t, p207m&b, p383m,
 
Also Indexed under: Half SS, Handcuff SS, Navy SS,, SS and Shepshanke

Happy Christmas Everybody!

P.S. now working on the RT with and without 2HH- a fascinating tool, the RT and further evolutions being one of the most powerful rope formations known to (insert your prefered personal denominator) man.
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on January 18, 2009, 11:06:30 PM


The Round Turn (in all its incarnations) + & - 2HH.

Primary forms of the knot: #36, #37, #41, #42, #1718, #1720, #1721, #1732, #1784, #1785, #1792, #1793, #1794, #1834 to #1838, #1883, #1910.

Practical Work: #162, #173, #200, #252, #407, #467, #478, #506, #534, #1013, #1267, #1270, #1273, #1275, #1612, #1742, #1752, #1772, #1939, #2024, #2102, #2108, #3090, #3091, #3095, #3097, #3099, #3121, #3124, #3145, #3271, #3304, #3314, #3315, #3361, #3378, #3399, #3403, #3410, #3432, #3455 to #3462 (various whippings), #3473, #3526, #3831.

Fancy Work (starting with or including RT): #476, #539, #542, #543, #727, #1006, #2248, #2255, #2257, #2259, #2889, #2890, #3509, #3510, #3542, #3544, #3552, #3553, #3554, #3619.

Tricks with RTs: #2547, #2584, #2596, #2597, #2604.

Knots starting with or including RT: #183, #336, #515, #539, #542, #1035, #1040, #1086, #1090, #1091, #1093, #1130, #1131, #1168(1167), #1169, #1176, #1177, #1186 to #1189, #1230, #1238, #1239, #1251, #1317, #1318, #1689, #1701, #1722 to #1724, #1791, #1840 to #1842, #1854, #1899, #1994, #2019, #2732, #2780.

Mentioned in other entries: #213(211), #390, #1140, #1457, #1513, #1643, #1657, #1669, #1681, #1716, #1846, #1970, #1981, #2028, #2133, #2179, #2774, #3555, #3556.

Mentioned in general text: p335t.

Mentioned in Glossary:  Bring up with a RT : Snub, to~ (RT).

Also Indexed under: Figure 8 hitch, Overhand RT~, RT and ~, RT~, Seized RT, Snaking- RT, Three RT?s, Two RT?s, Underhand RT~.

A bit of a marathon I know, but I have tried to include all mentions of the RT in the book in whatever form and application. No doubt the classifications are somewhat arbitrary and subject to opinion, but I?ve placed them where I see them fall. If I did it again they?d probably be different! Take a look and see what you think. I think I?ll try and find something with about 5 entries for the next one!
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: PwH on March 18, 2009, 11:04:52 PM
Just to let you all know that this project has taken a different turn, and the info is currently being encoded in what will eventually be a searchable database online. See the same topic in the computing pages for the mindnumbing details. I will try to get up to date info posted here from time to time, but I think the new twist will be well worth waiting for. Watch this space!
Title: Re: The Ashley Book of Knots INDEX Project, 2008
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 28, 2010, 07:09:51 AM
Yes, this is an old thread of mine, which has mutated and gone ...
-- well, I'm not sure (but into both a different thread AND category!).

My hope was to convert the not-user-friendly Index of ABOK into
something much more helpful, as well as accurate.  The PwH post I'm
annotating here shows a great effort to improve the Index; Peter has
gone a bit *astray* in grouping so much under one original Index
entry (viz., "Round turn"), but one can see how that is a help, e.g.,
in the case of "Seized round turn" -- which one might not think to
check for, and in the original appears under the "S"s of course.

Below, I have partly annotated PwH's collection by underscoring the
original entries of the Index, to highlight how much more (and better
arranged) information has been drawn out.  (But as time runs out for
me this late night, I'm quitting before fully making all of the underscores
needed, so the difference is here exaggerated -- but I might Edit this
post later, to rectify that in giving the full picture.)

The change to making some Excel work which is the subject of the
mutated thread resulted in grouping by chapter (work, i.e.),
whereas in my original plan the work might be grouped by letter
(of the Index)
.

The Round Turn (in all its incarnations) + & - 2HH.

Primary forms of the knot: #36, #37, #41, #42,
Round turn and HALF HITCH #1718,

 #1720, #1721, #1732, #1784, #1785, #1792,

Seized Round Turns #1793[/u],
<Round turn> hitched #1794,

Round turn and HALF HITCH #1834
 to
Round turn & buntline hitch#1838,

 #1883, #1910.

Practical Work: #162, #173, #200, #252, #407,
Round turn and HALF HITCH (bad image) #467,

<Rt> on tree limb #478,

#506, #534, #1013, #1267, #1270, #1273, #1275,

<Rt> on belaying pin #1612,

 #1742, #1752, #1772, #1939, #2024, #2102, #2108, #3090, #3091, #3095, #3097, #3099, #3121, #3124, #3145, #3271, #3304, #3314, #3315, #3361, #3378, #3399, #3403, #3410, #3432, #3455 to #3462 (various whippings), #3473, #3526, #3831.

Fancy Work (starting with or including RT): #476, #539, #542, #543, #727, #1006, #2248, #2255, #2257, #2259, #2889, #2890, #3509, #3510, #3542, #3544, #3552, #3553, #3554, #3619.

Tricks with RTs: #2547, #2584, #2596, #2597, #2604.

Knots starting with or including RT: #183, #336, #515, #539, #542, #1035, #1040, #1086, #1090, #1091, #1093, #1130, #1131, #1168(1167), #1169, #1176, #1177, #1186 to #1189, #1230, #1238, #1239, #1251, #1317, #1318, #1689, #1701, #1722 to #1724, #1791, #1840 to #1842, #1854, #1899, #1994, #2019,
 Round turn and EYE (w/bad pg. ref., really -- to image, not text) #2732[/u],
 #2780.

Mentioned in other entries: #213(211), #390, #1140, #1457, #1513, #1643, #1657, #1669, #1681, #1716, #1846, #1970, #1981, #2028, #2133, #2179, #2774, #3555, #3556.

Mentioned in general text: p335t.

Mentioned in Glossary:  Bring up with a RT : Snub, to~ (RT).

Also Indexed under: Figure 8 hitch, Overhand RT~, RT and ~, RT~, Seized RT, Snaking- RT, Three RT?s, Two RT?s, Underhand RT~.

A bit of a marathon I know, but I have tried to include all mentions of the RT in the book in whatever form and application. No doubt the classifications are somewhat arbitrary and subject to opinion, but I?ve placed them where I see them fall. If I did it again they?d probably be different! Take a look and see what you think. I think I?ll try and find something with about 5 entries for the next one!


In contrast, ABOK has:

Quote
Round turn, 12, 641; hitched, 304; on belaying pin, 285; on tree limb, 77
Round turn and BUNTLINE HITCH, 309
Round turn and EYE, 445
Round turn and HALF HITCH, 76, 309
Round turn and SLIPPED HALF HITCH, 303
Round turn and TWO HALF HITCHES, 296, 303, 309, 314, 316
Round TURN BOWLINE KNOTS 186
Round turn lashing, 535
Round turn snaking, 518
Round turn stitch, 561


--dl*
====