Author Topic: Testing Lee's Knots  (Read 750 times)

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 895
Re: Testing Lee's Knots
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2018, 02:40:36 AM »
per Derek:
Quote
The OH component naturally transforms into the XCarrick component
The alleged entity posited as an "XCarrick component" is a use of personal lexicon advanced only by Derek Smith.

To use the term carrick in any sense is misplaced in my view.
In the first instance, the commonly shown tying steps for #1439 carrick bend (with uniform weave pattern) is in fact a dressing state - which quickly undergoes a transformation when load is applied.
The original uniform weave pattern vanishes - and instead morphs into two inter-linked #206 crossing hitches.

Climbers recognise and use #206 on a routine basis as a belay system - commonly known to them as a 'Munter hitch' / 'italian hitch').

The point being that the 'carrick bend' - supposedly where you draw the name of the alleged 'component' from - actually transforms under load to an energy stable state and does not resemble the original symmetry and uniform weave of its initial dressing state (which most people associate with).

And furthermore, it is actually possible to bypass the initial dressing state altogether - and simply tie a #206 crossing hitch and then inter-link another #206 crossing hitch with the first (to arrive at the energy stable final form #1439).
The term 'carrick' is less intuitive than 'crossing hitch' - with 'crossing' implying some form of overlap. In fact, a Munter hitch (which is #206) benefits from a capstan effect on the object to which it forms around (a carabiner) - and this, together with a crossing over its own SPart generate tremendous frictional braking power.

To describe Alan Lee's creations as somehow consisting of so called 'carrick components' (or X carrick components) is arbitrary and non intuitive.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2018, 02:44:13 AM by agent_smith »

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1511
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Testing Lee's Knots
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2018, 11:54:57 AM »
per Derek:
Quote
The OH component naturally transforms into the XCarrick component
The alleged entity posited as an "XCarrick component" is a use of personal lexicon advanced only by Derek Smith.


Thank you Mark for acknowledging my small part in identifying,,developing and promoting the concept of knotting Components.

You are of course quite correct in stating that the lexicon I am using is of my own creation, and as such will undoubtedly be in places poor, weak, confusing or inappropriate.  It is one of the values of this forum, that we may jointly develop a rational lexicon.

I have attempted thus far to utilise descriptive names, so it seemed rational to me that the Carrick which only contained duplicates of the same component, should share its name with the component that made it - hence, the Carrick Component.  Likewise, the Helix and Bight Components fell out naturally from discussions on their functionality.

Yes, of course, we could also call the Carrick Component the #206 Component.  So long as we all know what the structure is that we are referring to, all will be well.  Only time will tell as to what users prefer.

Anyway, I think we have hijacked this thread enough with talk about the lexicon for components, don't you?

Derek

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 895
Re: Testing Lee's Knots
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2018, 02:10:33 AM »
Quote
Hi All.  This time I am totally wrong, I thought no problem with Lee's Marlinspike loop, the Pretzel loop will do well too.

Today I do some quick tests, I found out it just can't handed heavy weight with climbing rope and it's jam bad, not too bad for 1/4" solid braid nylon rope, but still will jam on maximum load.
I totally underestimate the nipping force generate by the pair of interlock nipping loop it tightens the nub so hard. just unable to untie the loop.

Hi Alan,
Just need to confirm something here please...
Did you mean that the knot based around #559 Marlinspike hitch was okay and did not jam?
It was the other knot - the Pretzel loop - that jammed?

Quote
Lesson lean, just can't judge by how good it looks of a knot , only through test than can tell the true of a knot.
I generally agree but, I would have thought that you could speculate or at least theorize that a knot built around a non-jamming structure such as a nipping loop or a marlinspike hitch (which are topologically equivalent to the unknot) would likely be jam resistant?
Just my thoughts...

per Derek:
Quote
I have attempted thus far to utilize descriptive names,
'Carrick component' is (in my view) not a descriptive term for the reason that most people identify the uniform weave pattern (mat) of #1439 Carrick bend before it has undergone transformation into something of an entirely different appearance.
This transformation yields #206 crossing hitches which are none other than the rock climbers all time favourite belay system (the 'Munter hitch).
In examining the physical appearance Alan's knots - your use of terms such as 'carricks' and 'Xcarricks' is not simplifying and making it easy to understand the structure.
In that sense, it can be hard for some readers on this forum to grasp what you mean by these terms - because they are entirely abstract.

alanleeknots

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 468
Re: Testing Lee's Knots
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2018, 10:13:40 AM »
HI All,
           I did a few quick tests on Marlinspike loop with 1/4" solid braid nylon rope and heavy used Bluewater Ropes 11mm (7/16")
           SAFELINE NFPA static Rope, it doesn't jam on and easy to untie, just to be on the safe side I like to do more test then
           I can confirm it is jam resistant. .
           
           Yes the Pretzel loop will jam, I have a few tests with heavy used Bluewater Ropes 11mm (7/16") SAFELINE NFPA static Rope and
           it's jam around 900 kg.
           I have some lightly used 1/4" solid braid nylon rope, this cheap rope the manufacturer didn't give the MBS # of their rope,
           I check online I found these types of rope, the MBS is around 500kg. I did three tests on a pretzel loop with the 1/4" rope,
           they all jam around 230kg.
         
           After I found out Pretzel loop jam, I do some study, I found  most bowline variation with a bowline (unknot) nipping loop
           Would likely be jammed resistant,  and any other kind of (unknot) nipping would likely to be jammed.
           Having said this any other kind of (unknot) nipping loop, the incoming eye leg and tail have to tangle in the right place
           then is can be jam resistant.

            For Marlinspike hitch is different from the rest, it generates compression force to secure the loop.
            I Would say Marlinspike hitch, do better than "any other kind of (unknot) nipping" but lose to Bowline nipping loop.
             謝謝 alanleeknots.