Author Topic: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend  (Read 28568 times)

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #75 on: December 15, 2017, 02:53:51 AM »
Finding some more interesting words ...
at
 http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-airships-1932-visit-sd-brought-tragedy-2009dec05-story.html

Quote
The Akron slowly descended through thick fog until it reached clear skies at 1,200 feet. But the morning sun was expanding the helium, making the ship too buoyant. The captain, Lt. Cmdr. Charles Rosendahl, ordered the propellers turned skyward to push the airship closer to the ground.

At 11 a.m., the 400-foot docking ropes were dropped to the ground between two landing crews of sailors. Each man had to grab a trail rope and attach it to ?spiders,? fixed ground lines with wooden toggles. A separate mooring cable dropped from the nose of the Akron, which was attached the mooring mast. A winch wound the mooring cable, pulling the airship down.

I'm not sure what "cable" means --steel or fibre rope.
The account continues with the sad fatality of some
hangers-on --who eventually couldn't--, and a harrowing
story of the 3rd, who did.

Oh, dear, it's captured on film.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHsVcDK42VQ

Anyway, looking at this, I still don't see that one would be
tying on another rope --the landing action is something
anticipated with fully adequate gear.  What seems to be
attached are the sets of man-ropes via toggles (and which
those two unfortunate men were manning).

Egadz, it gets better : close-up (relative) of the survivor
and all the toggles gear (but no filming of the supposed
on-board sailor who was lowered to tie some line to help
stabilize the dangling sailor and by which he was winched
up, later?!) !!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsGoRyheOkY


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 03:06:53 AM by Dan_Lehman »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2017, 02:40:57 AM »
It is interesting to note that both the zeppelin & hunter's bends
came to their more broad popularity at about the same time,
circa 1977.  The latter has an older published-in-book date,
but the influence of that book seems not much better than
that of Bob Thrun's Potomac Caver newletter article re the former,
in 1966!

Currently, to my awareness, it looks as though Geoffrey Budworth's
The Knot Book (1983) might be what crossed the former knot into
more popular knowledge --into books (from 2 magazines and 1
obscure newsletter).


--dl*
====

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2018, 12:29:36 AM »
My reading of this most interesting bit of history
from the pen of CERosendahl himself (!) is that
mooring principally involved lines called "WIRES"
--which I do not see as anything remotely knottable
(whereas "cable" leaves one wondering).
And it seems by this reading, at least, the little knotting
was involved in standard mooring operations; connectors
of a mechanical kind were used, for the main wires.


--dl*
====


[
Popular Science Monthly, March 1930, p.40ff,

             "Flying with an Airship Captain"
   The Veteran Commander of Navy Dirigibles Tells
   of his Experiences in Piloting the Los Angeles

  by Lieutenant Commander Charles E. Rosendahl     
]
.
.
.
"In an attempt to tie to the mooring mast,
rough winds had jerked the ship about so violently
that a nine-sixteenth mooring cable snapped just
in time to save the framework of the ship from damage."
.
.
.
" 'Stand by for Up Ship' ropes are cast off. "
.
.
.
[pp.159-60]

"The Los Angeles provides an impromptu fireworks display
when it lands at a mooring mast.  She carries a Very light pistol,
as possible use as a distress signal, but principally used in the
mooring maneuver.  When the main cable is dropped we fire a white star.
Dropping the starboard yaw wire is accompanied by a green star.
And the port yaw wire by a red one.
This calls attention to the dropping of the wires, which may be
difficult to see, particularly at night.
The ground crew respond with the same lights as they couple
each wire to the corresponding ground wire.  The Very lights
are used both day and night, and the brilliant colored balls are
most easily seen in broad daylight.


[cf (long URLink) ]
https://books.google.com/books?id=HCoDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=%22mooring+cable%22+airship+los+angeles+description&source=bl&ots=THldJAf9e3&sig=uwaYZjYiE9YtFLFVZ4dgA1LEh1M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ-4LLvtPYAhVIY98KHexVD-cQ6AEIVzAM#v=onepage&q=%22mooring%20cable%22%20airship%20los%20angeles%20description&f=false

Popular Science
books.google.com
Popular Science gives our readers the information and tools to improve their technology and their world. The core belief that Popular Science and our readers share: The future is going to be better, and science and technology are the driving forces that will help make it better.


smirnov_wasilii

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 16
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2018, 07:12:32 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_UzV1SWo_s

I came up with this method of binding loop based on the node Zeppelin. It demonstrates the isotopic similarity of the Zeppelin and reef knots.

Я придумал такой способ вязки петли на основе узла Цеппелин. Он демонстрирует изотопическое сходство цеппелина и рифового узлов.

Twine

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 100
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2018, 04:50:25 AM »

To kick it off, the first Knot Bio is about the Zeppelin bend.

Link to page: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table)

This is a work-in-progress...and I of course welcome any comments, and constructive feedback.


I am not knowledgeable enough that I can give constructive feedback, but here's my comment anyway: I'm stunned by admiration. Your "Biography" of the Zeppelin knot is most thorough and exhaustive, and what I especially liked about it is that even though you don't shy away from giving much technical detail, you also make it accessible to a layman by explaining all the technical details. Great job!
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" - Leonardo da Vinci

knotsaver

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 281
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2018, 07:02:03 PM »

I came up with this method of binding loop based on the node Zeppelin. It demonstrates the isotopic similarity of the Zeppelin and reef knots.


Hi smirnov_wasilii,
your tying method is nice!
You are a magician too!  ;)
I prefer other eyes, but I like your tying method!
Thanks for sharing it.
Ciao,
s.

knot rigger

  • Exp. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 109
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2018, 05:43:22 PM »

smirnov_wasilii

your method of tying a zepplin loop is fantastic, thanks for sharing

andy

DerekSmith

  • IGKT Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1572
  • Knot Botherer
    • ALbion Alliance
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #82 on: August 21, 2018, 06:22:26 PM »
@ Mark,

Just found this wonderful bio.  I love the history.

Of course, as you would expect I disagree with your structural and functional analysis, but apart from that, a truly excellent story.

Derek

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2018, 12:52:22 AM »
Derek, you are welcome to disagree as much as you like.

And of course, you are welcome to tender your own theory of how a Zeppelin end-to-end joining knot functions.
EDIT: In fact, you are most welcome to have your theoretical analysis inserted into the paper - and be given credit for any contribution you choose to make.

I am thinking about an update... but at the moment, I am writing an update/revision to my 'Analysis of Bowlines' paper. I have many new images and a rich source of ideas to inject into that paper.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 08:38:54 AM by agent_smith »

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend (updated)
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2019, 09:53:59 AM »
I have uploaded a new and revised version of the Zeppelin bend paper.
VER 1.2 (15 MAY 2019) is uploaded.

Link: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table).

Added new images.
Added new content.
Added a conclusion.

Comments / feedback are always welcome!

Happy knotting to all :)

Mark G
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 09:55:25 AM by agent_smith »

SS369

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2021
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2019, 01:12:21 PM »
Great project, great work.
Thank you Mark!

SS

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2019, 08:26:45 PM »
[hoping not to be timed-out mis-composition (lost) this time!]

Just some quick remarks.

I'd try to soften the lawyer-debate aspect of history
with some notes:
1) Odd that the alleged Joe Collins made no enquiries  <--[edit "no" vice "on"]
of his old place of skilled work (USNavy) about how
his favorite knot was doing!?
[Also that he didn't return from his edifying time
w/Cmd. Rosendahl to promote his (Joe's) admired knot
to his subsequent marlinespike-seamanship students, et alia. <--added]

2) Odd irrespective of any Joe Collins that USNavy
(or anywherElse) has NO HINT OF THE KNOT!?

((Recall that the Practical Boating article about a Speir
knot does find presence --though slightly varied knot!?--
in USArmy Field/Tech. manuals. ))

3) No hint from Joe about how Rosendahl came to know
and then favor / believe-in this knot, which he allegedly
valued for being best for his beloved airships!?  (I guess
it makes sense to follow THIS point w/#2, that not only
was no source given, but none shows up today.)

4) Bob Thrun's discovery is pub'd and fact.  So, too,
the Paynes' article, but later dated --and COULD have
come from Bob in roundabout way, but I don't think so.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:36:08 PM by Dan_Lehman »

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2019, 05:55:03 AM »
I have added some new content...

VER 1.2a (04 June 2019) is uploaded.

Link: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table).

Changelog:
Added new content about using ropes of different diameters.
Added new content about the false Zeppelin bend.

That wraps up my creative work on this paper for a while...

Comments / feedback are always welcome!

Happy knotting to all :)

Mark G

agent_smith

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2019, 11:07:01 AM »
I have added some new content...

VER 1.3 (10June 2019) is uploaded.

Link: http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php (at #4 in the table).

Changelog:
Page 14: Now showing all 4 corresponding Zeppelin eye (loop) knots
Page 15: Now showing all 4 corresponding eye knots from #1053 derived Butterfly bend
Page 16: Added other additional corresponding eye knots

Posited that #1053 Butterfly formed by linking the 2 tails from corresponding Butterfly bend is perhaps the only TIB knot formed this way? (ie from 2 interlinked overhand knots).
That is, when creating a corresponding eye knot from a 'bend' by linking the 2 tails - it appears that only #1053 Butterfly is TIB (from inter-linked overhand knots).
This needs to be verified.

Comments / feedback are always welcome!

Happy knotting to all :)

Mark G
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 03:54:00 AM by agent_smith »

Dan_Lehman

  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
Re: Knot Bio: Zeppelin bend
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2019, 01:50:06 AM »
Notes on latest version.

p.12 of 32, l00ks like you got careless on your
"tied with bights" variation : => Asymmetric
--see the non-mirror'd SParts (both are left of tails)!

If you're doing such a thing,
then the eye<->joint corresponding knot I've
presented fits in, happily.

Quote
Posited that #1053 Butterfly formed by linking the 2 tails from
corresponding Butterfly bend is perhaps the only TIB knot formed this way?
How quickly you forget about (nearby of your papers)
the offset water knot --which produces the most often
Found-In-The-Wild mid-line eye knot.
(But you might want to examine other in-line eye knots,
such as the fig.8 and so on.)

To my mind, though, you reach out of bounds
in claiming some of these corresponding knots
to be so for some particular end-2-end joint :
no, not when that knot's SParts are not one or
the other the SPart of the correspondent --then,
its'some other joint (one w/diff. SParts).  You
are, in my thinking, going "same" at the *tangle*
not *knot* level.


p.21, top table of break-test results.
Isn't it puzzling that there is such difference
between some of these results!?  It's about
a 9%-pt stepping on that for the bowline,
and then some oddity in the fig.8 <various>
results, too --where one can question what
orientation (and any setting) was made!?
(20 & 14 %pt.s for the later two testings
between eye & joint !  --vs. nil of 1st.)
((Btw, "Rhino..." sounds like CMC Rope Rescue
data, which (Ref. Man.) DO have butterfly
results.  (Interestingly, pulled purely end-2-end,
it does little better than the fig.8, for them.)
))

p.22 (of 32).  Oh, my, that "toggle axis" ...  :-\   ::)
Bit much of X. coming through here,
but in any case, one can (also) see that
--and esp. where the material deforms more,
  or wasn't dressed & set snugly--
the SParts can mimic the bowline's nipping turn.
(YMMV.)


--dl*
====



 

anything