Author Topic: Knot Identification  (Read 4881 times)

V.V.V.V.V.

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Knot Identification
« on: September 13, 2006, 01:48:49 PM »
So, here I am, a newbie, screwing around with different knots I've found on the web and in books.  I "discovered" something I haven't seen yet, and I'm wondering what it is.  It seems far too simple for it to not have been tied a thousand times before with at least one name.  So here goes...





Has any one seen this before and/or knows what it's called?  Also any particular failings of the knot?  I know that if it isn't set right it will slip, but I have tried it in several different kinds and sizes of rope w/o it failing.


roo

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2006, 04:15:00 PM »
See the last two paragraphs of this page for a description of what you have:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/reefknot.html
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 05:16:04 PM by roo »
If you wish to add a troll to your ignore list, click "Profile" then "Buddies/Ignore List".

V.V.V.V.V.

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2006, 04:41:59 PM »
Problem solved, thank you :)

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2006, 06:06:06 PM »
The form of the knot you present is sometimes shown as the "Grass Bend",
and suggested for flat material.  One can arrive at the knot by your means
w/o any hint of the "Grief" orientation--which knot is harder to tie, directly.
(The Grief structure looks great as a way to interlock two eyes, pretty
well resisting jamming (unlike interlocking them in a square way);
but it has to be tied, which begs the question Why tie interlocked eyes
vs. making a bend?)

There's a similarly two-sided/treacherous bend in which the turns of
the opposed ropes go opposite to each other, and which requires
more care in dressing & setting (and is even less stable).  In this
knot, the half-hitch components are opp.-handed, unlike above.
I can be difficult to achieve a balanced bending of parts in it (i.e.,
one SPart can be too straight vs other, and corresponding parts
not equally curved/shaped--setting up/sustaining a sort of "race
condidion" in which a bias of loading aggravates the distortion).

--dl*
====

Willeke

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 07:47:45 PM »
V.V.V.V.V.
For some reason I can not see your pictures.
When I paste the link into the address bar of my browser I get an empty white page.

Are there more people with this problem? Does anyone know how to see the pictures?

Willeke
"Never underestimate what a simple person can do with clever tools,
nor what a clever person can do with simple tools." - Ian Fieggen

Writer of A booklet on lanyards, available from IGKT supplies.

knudeNoggin

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2006, 01:30:02 AM »
V.V.V.V.V.
For some reason I can not see your pictures.

I see photos, with only a short delay to load--rope, and beautiful walnut!

*knudeNoggin*

KnotNow!

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2006, 09:53:54 AM »
I'll relay some personal experience with the Grass Knot;  When I started finding uses for flat woven nylon and flattened tubular nylon strapping (tie downs on motorcyeles and lashing to the car top of soft painted canoes) I went to ABOK and found this knot.  Seemed like a good idea at the time.  Then re-read ABOK and see that all the material mentiond is expendable and not to be reused.  This seems to either slip and then jam or just jam from the beginning.  I have nothing to recommend it in material you intend to reuse or to secure anything of value.  I have used it to fine effect for making cane bottom canoe seats and other such.
  Just to not leave a loose end on this thread.  I recommend the use of a cinch knot, ABOK # 234, on a  ring.  Then the flat material is wonderful for not chewing up the paint on the canoe and good for the bundles on the motorcycle so all is not lost. :D  I use all sorts of rings (recycled or purchased new) and haven't lost my stuff or had to cut the knot (not the experience when using the grass knot).
  You will also find the climbers use some tape knots as shown in Phillpott and others... plenty of web sites I supose.. I am using some of the ones from Lindsey P's books to good effect.
   One thing I would recommend to anyone starting out;  Buy some inexpensive cord and ruin it.  Get some hands on experience finding out about a jammed knot.  The web sites, the books and the collective information is 1000% better than 50 year ago, but plenty of missinformation too.  That said there is nothing like holding a knot that you can't undo (not with your hands, not with your teeth, not with your spike or a brickbat) and wondering why you did not learn a better knot before this happened.
  Thank you for opening a good thread and giving us an oportunity to cast our ideas.  I hope to see you on Forum as you work your knots.  We have a great show coming up for the Equinox Weekend, wish you could join us.  Going to be a lot of fun! :)
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

KC

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2006, 08:52:31 PM »
In my imagery; i think of Square/Reef etc. as 'jams' rather than 'knots' in that they seem not secured by some Standing Parts force used to try to sieze the Bitters securely; but rather the 2 Bitter ends jamming agianst each other.  In this imagery, a Granny doesn't assert the jam correctly; and a Thief places the Standing Part pull of 1 end agianst the opposite's Bitters; not to sieze; but to pull it free; a fatal error pattern in a number of wronlgy made lacings/ knots.

The WhatNot is great trick; for with  the same lacing pattern you can assert the jamming or not; with a subtle bump/ misalignment of the jamming parts
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon

:o Please excuse the interuption. :o
We now return you to normal programming;
already in progress... Thanks, -The Mgmt.

KnotNow!

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2006, 10:23:02 AM »
Hello to all my good knotters!
  Please look at your links and other internet connections.  I Love my internet connections to IGKT and KHWW but I am at 25KB and if you send me to some site.. You have cost me my evening and my connection and put a lock on my computer.


 This is not a part of this thread!!!!!


  Now I recognize this is my problem, and not yours ...... but  there must be other knotters who are on slowwww dial up.  If this is not the case and if you are not smart enough to offer a connection for the dialup impared... Oh Well!   Can you avoid a mega link or warn me that I need a minum of DSL or some such to connect?
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2006, 03:06:32 PM »
Hello to all my good knotters!
  Please look at your links and other internet connections.  I Love my internet connections to IGKT and KHWW but I am at 25KB and if you send me to some site.. You have cost me my evening and my connection and put a lock on my computer.


 This is not a part of this thread!!!!!


  Now I recognize this is my problem, and not yours ...... but  there must be other knotters who are on slowwww dial up.  If this is not the case and if you are not smart enough to offer a connection for the dialup impared... Oh Well!   Can you avoid a mega link or warn me that I need a minum of DSL or some such to connect?

Hi Roy,

When the whole www seems to be set up to expect the user to be connected via fast broadband, it can ba a real bummer to be on dialup.  Sometimes I have to use a slow connection on my laptop and I understand your fear of trying to open a heavy graphics webpage.

Could I offer a partial solution.  I use Mozilla Firefox as my browser (its free and great).  You can set up Firefox to load a page as only text - that is, any pictures simply get displayed as a marker telling you how big the file is.  This can cut down page loading time to a fraction of what it would take to load in all the graphics.  Then, if the text leads you to want to look at the pics, and the file sizes are OK for you, then you can select an image and have it displayed.

If this looks attractive to you and you want a hand setting up Firefox, then PM me, or perhaps Webbmiss could put up a suitable tutorial for you and others who will be 'enjoying' the same problem.

Derek

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2006, 07:57:34 PM »
I was first shown this knot many years ago by my Grandfather as part of the magic that only a Grandfather can make.  It was many years before I learned that it was the knot rather than my Grandfather that was magic.  It was to be many many more years before I was to learn the mechanism of that magic.

Today, I am convinced that the Whatnot is important enough at a number of levels to warrant being a part of the key group of knots to be considered for educational projects.

First and perhaps of most importance - the Whatnot is FUN.  Being able to show ones peers that knots can be clever and cool is key in achieving interest in the field, particularly for attracting the young persons for whom knotting can seem to be nothing more that 'Nerdy and Pants'.  We must not underestimate the importance of fun and the Whatnot is one of the best for that gift.

Second - the Whatnot gives us the opportunity to show how important it is to dress a knot correctly and the consequences of getting it wrong.

Third - it shows that all knots are not equal, they are not all just 'knots' - some are always safe, some are always dangerous and some like the Whatnot can be switched from one state to the other.  It leads on to the examples of knots that can do this all by themselves.  It becomes the perfect springboard to demonstrate the need to consider the right knot for the job in hand.

Fourth - it gives us the opportunity of demonstrating how knots work.  The Whatnot is a perfect pair of gooseneck elements grasping one another, perfectly partnered by the Myrtle knot which is also a perfect pair of goosnecks which this time grasp themselves.  This leads naturally to be able to consider the other key locking elements that are at work within knots, how to identify them and how to make sure that they are set right when the knots are dressed.

Fifth - in counterpoint to the 'how knots work' lesson, the switched Whatnot is a perfect example of what happens inside a knot which has no locking components - in fact the Whatnot acts as an excellent pair of cord wheels working one with the other, unrolling the cord through the knot, twisting the cord one turn for every revolution of the knot.  It is sometimes hard to believe that cord can behave this way unless you are able to see it in action, there are a few knots which do this but none I believe are better than the Whatnot.

All in, I think we might be hard pressed to choose a better knot with which to start a persons education into the world of knots - perhaps this was behind my Granfathers choice all those years ago and why I finished up with the fascination I have for knots.

knudeNoggin

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2006, 04:55:11 PM »
I
Second - the Whatnot gives us the opportunity to show how important it is to dress a knot correctly and the consequences of getting it wrong.

Third - it shows that all knots are not equal, they are not all just 'knots' - some are always safe, some are always dangerous and

But, Third contradicts Second:  it might not be important.

*knudeNoggin*


DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2006, 06:14:47 PM »
Knude,

I am being thick, but I do not understand how 2 and 3 contradict - please expand.

Derek

knudeNoggin

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2006, 04:50:10 PM »
Knude,

I am being thick, but I do not understand how 2 and 3 contradict - please expand.

Derek
I suppose "how important" has possible readings:  if taken as "it is quite important",
then that runs counter to #3's pointing out that for some knots it is not, where you
remark that "some are always safe", which I take to mean "no matter the dressing",
which seems to be the case with the Figure 8 loopknot, as one sees this in indeed
all manner of dressings!

*knudeNoggin*

DerekSmith

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Re: Knot Identification
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2006, 08:24:37 PM »
Thanks Knude,

I understand now - if a knot is always safe, then the arguement that dressing is important  falls down for those knots.

However, the list is aimed at explaining to children and beginers the aspects of knotting.  I hope you would agree that, in most cases, dressing is important and the Whatnot demonstrates that very clearly.


The third reason again is aimed at children to who a knot is a knot.  Explaining that there are differences between knots is one of the key steps toward becoming knot literate.  Again the Whatnot help show the differences that structure can have on function.

Although I now understand your point on contradiction, it applies only to someone at your level of knotting comprehension.  Perhaps you can agree that for the novice, such finesse is likely to be over their heads.

Derek
« Last Edit: September 27, 2006, 08:30:42 PM by DerekSmith »