Author Topic: Prusik with Riding Turns  (Read 4418 times)

ilikerobots

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Prusik with Riding Turns
« on: December 16, 2012, 01:51:26 PM »
Knot tyers,

I was unable to identify the following hitch after searching about the internet (unfortunately, I don't have access to a copy of ABOK).  I would describe it as a Prusik embedded between a couple of riding turns over additional turns.

To tie, as illustrated below:
Start with a loop.  Wrap the end of the loop around the post, laying each turn inside the prior turn.  Next, pass the other loop inside the the last turn, which forms riding turns around the outer turns.  Continue wrapping this last loop as if tying a Prusik. 

Although not practical, I think it could also be tied by sliding a regular Prusik off the end of its post, then inverting the last n turns on either side, then sliding back onto the post.

Does this hitch have a name/number?

Thanks for you assistance and expertise. 

DerekSmith

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2012, 03:32:02 PM »
Hello Liker of Robots, and welcome.

What a brute, where did you find it?

I do not know if it has a prior identification, but hopefully one of the Master Knotters will remember its structure and give you its name.

I reduced the beast to just one outer coil and one inner coil and still it held well, even with slick polyester on painted steel.

In the single turn format, I noticed immediately a sharing of components - the expanding scissor - with the KC Hitch, except of course, this beast is bidirectional.

Good find.

Derek

SS369

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 03:36:03 PM »
Hello ilikerobots and welcome.

Thanks for your contribution.
I agree with you that this is not all that practical.
After tying it a few times I personally think it is a bit fiddly to dress and maintain, especially using it as its base knot(s) are typically used.

When a Prusik-type is extended with additional coils and/or crossings, it has been my experience ( I try out many slide and grip type knots on actual rope in the crags) that they invariably add the challenge of not releasing easily or don't grip any better than the simpler ones. Or worse!

I would like to try this on a large diameter pole to check its merits, but I don't have one handy.

As for identification: There may be no record of this anywhere in the public domain. And since I consider this a hybrid, I feel that this will be the case in private collections as well.

There are many constructs to be found yet and if you find them, share what you find.

If you will, please offer them in the most appropriate Forum board.

SS

ilikerobots

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2012, 03:53:43 PM »
Hello Liker of Robots, and welcome.

Thank you!

Quote
What a brute, where did you find it?

I was experimenting and ended up with this.   I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere, so took some photos for you guys to help with.  I did see the KC Hitch you mentioned below while perusing the forums here, but also thought, as you suggested, that it is fairly different.

Quote
I reduced the beast to just one outer coil and one inner coil and still it held well, even with slick polyester on painted steel.

It certainly gripped my Louisville Slugger well.  I think the riding turns squeeze quite a bit and therefore increase the friction on the hitch.

Sweeney

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2012, 10:28:31 PM »
Is this the same knot as discussed last July in this thread http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3077.0 (there is a link to a German Wikipedia article showing a similar "false" Prusik at http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:PrusikInnenWickeln1-6.jpg).

Barry

X1

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2012, 11:28:27 PM »
"false" Prusik

  The name "false" indicates some lesser quality of this knot in relation to the "true" Prusik - and we just do not know it yet, do we ? In fact, this "false" Prusik can serve as a better gripping hitch around poles than the "true" Prusik. Around ropes, I think that it will not offer anything more, and because it will not twist the main line so much as a corresponding "true" Prusik, it would probably not deform it so much, so it will be less effective.

   I would like to compare it with a same wraps multi-Clove hitch ( see the attached pictures ) which has one only riding turn. I can not predict the outcome - but I suspect it would be probably better to have only one riding turn, because it will meet the round turns at a more oblique angle, so it will squeeze them, the one upon the other, more forcefully - and this is beneficial for any multi - wraps tight friction hitch around poles.

DerekSmith

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2012, 02:00:40 AM »
Is this the same knot as discussed last July in this thread http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3077.0 (there is a link to a German Wikipedia article showing a similar "false" Prusik at http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:PrusikInnenWickeln1-6.jpg).

Barry

Hi Barry, although the link to the 'False Prusik' is an almost identical knot, the link to this knot



shows a knot which cannot be tied with a loop, so it cannot be the same knot.

Derek

ilikerobots

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2012, 07:17:37 AM »
Reading the thread that Sweeney referenced (thank you, Sweeney) shows a post by civis romanus (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3077.msg23432#msg23432) identifying the "false Prusik" as a "Gerard Hitch".   This does look close, but the knot I illustrated at the top of this thread utilizes one or more turns before exiting the loop.  This causes the formation of riding turns, as opposed to the Gerard in which working ends immediately exit the loop without riding anything.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 09:19:48 PM by ilikerobots »

ilikerobots

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2012, 09:35:23 PM »
Reading more carefully, I see xarax posted (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=3068.msg18348#msg18348) describing a symmetric spong (which I think he or she coined).  This is the equivalent to what I described in the initial post, when reduced to the minimum turns. 

By adding additional turns and dressing them in different ways, it can end up looking quite different.

Example:

X1

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2012, 12:31:02 AM »
... a symmetric spong ...This is the equivalent to what I described in the initial post
... looking quite different.

   No, it is not "equivalent" ... It may look like it, but it works very differently - so those two knots are as different as they might be !  :)
   In the modified spong knot, we are trying to utilize the same effect as at the rat tail stopper(1)(2)(3) : Each oblique round turn is squeezed upon the main line by a crossing oblique riding turn - and, at the next crossing, those two turns change roles : the riding turn passes "under", and becomes a round turn, that is now squeezed by the ex-round turn, that passes "over" and becomes a riding turn. In this way, the main line is deformed locally, at each and every node, and the gripping power of the multiple warps on it is greatly enhanced. This effect works as efficiently as it does in the rat tail stopper, only when the hitch is tied around a rope. A pole can not be deformed, so a similar hitch around a pole is not so effective ( ABoK#1755, 1756, KC hitch )
   At the modified Prusik presented at this thread, the "coil tube" is continuous, so there is no local deformation of the main line at each point where the (two) oblique riding turns meet and squeeze the (multiple) round turns.
   However, at the modified Prusik, the riding turns can be tensioned along their entire length much more than at the modified spong knot, or at the rat tail stopper - because they do not pass "under" the round turns at any point. This would probably be beneficial to the hitch s gripping power, for yet another reason : The oblique riding turns squeeze the adjacent round turns the one upon the other, and this can generate a very tight hitch - just as it does in the case of the multi-wraps Clove hitch mentioned previously.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2849.0
2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2191.msg16938#msg16938
3. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2191.msg16992#msg16992
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 12:47:59 AM by X1 »

ilikerobots

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2012, 10:29:07 AM »
Thanks for the analysis, X1.  I think you've described it well, including its potential merits.  It does seem to hold promise of significant gripping power.

At the modified Prusik presented at this thread

Perhaps we can tentatively call it a "Gersik" a portmanteau of Gerard and Prusik, as during the tying this appears to start as Gerard hitch which transforms into a Prusik.

X1

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2012, 02:34:56 PM »
Perhaps we can tentatively call it a "Gersik" a portmanteau of Gerard and Prusik, as during the tying this appears to start as Gerard hitch which transforms into a Prusik

  Gersik is a fine chic name !  :) I cast my vote for Gersik.

TMCD

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Re: Prusik with Riding Turns
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2012, 04:21:49 PM »
I wouldn't dare tie the first knot shown here but Xarax's triple clove hitch is a fine looking hitch. I wish we had some proof on it's performance/merit, but I've tied it several times and with just my bare hands it holds quite well. I can put a good strain on things with just my hands because I'm 6-5 275lbs.

I do think Xarax's triple clove hitch would be a very good pipe hitch etc. Let's get some testing on that knot and it's super easy to tie...something we should all strive for. Some of these pipe hitches are simply difficult to remember, it's one reason I always tie the old stand by...Pipe Hitch itself.