Author Topic: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion  (Read 6992 times)

Korg

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Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« on: August 06, 2011, 11:39:04 PM »
I'm probably wrong here:  is the gripping sailor's hitch and the icicle hitch exactly the same except for that the working end and standing end are opposite on either knot?
That's how it looks in the pictures found on the wiki page for both.

wiki's icicle hitch pic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bobmcgricicle5.jpg
wiki's gripping sailor's hitch pic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bobmcgrsailorgrip4.jpg


roo

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2011, 01:32:29 AM »
I'm probably wrong here:  is the gripping sailor's hitch and the icicle hitch exactly the same except for that the working end and standing end are opposite on either knot?
That's how it looks in the pictures found on the wiki page for both.

wiki's icicle hitch pic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bobmcgricicle5.jpg
wiki's gripping sailor's hitch pic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bobmcgrsailorgrip4.jpg
No.  I think you'll have less confusion if you take away the extra coils for each hitch.  One reduces to the Sailor's Hitch:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html

The Icicle Hitch reduces to the general geometry of the Pile Hitch:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html

They are not equivalent.  Although the extra coils can be added to the Pile Hitch in different ways to produce a Double Pile Hitch or an Icicle Hitch.

P.S.  I will try to find a better diagram show how you eliminate the extra coils from the icicle hitch.
P.P.S.  Let's try the attached image:
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 01:47:40 AM by roo »
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Korg

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2011, 04:35:45 PM »
I took a closer look at them, and it looks like they are exactly the same, save for the last tuck.  It's not that clear on diagrams available online because they are viewed from different perspectives.  I'll attach diagrams to this post when I've drawn them.

But yes, the icicle hitch reduces to the pile hitch and the Sailor's hitch is a constrictor with a another change of mind in the last turn.
Which means the pile hitch, constrictor and sailor's hitch differ by one or two 'moves' and the icicle hitch and gripping sailors' hitch are just the pile hitch and sailors' hitch with extra turns, but we all knew that.

So how about the constrictor with extra turns?  It works very well as a gripping hitch too.  Is there a name for it, and/or an entry for it in ABOK?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 06:19:27 PM by Korg »

knot4u

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2011, 06:32:58 PM »
This thread answers a lot of questions:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1889.0

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2011, 06:54:08 PM »
I took a closer look at them, and it looks like they are exactly the same, save for the last tuck.
...

Assuming no differentiation is made on number of wraps
(i.e., both knots can have an arbitrary number ...),
the difference comes, as you note, with the tucking
of the tail; both turn around the SPart, but in the
S.G.H. the tail is then quickly nipped between the SPart
and the object (which might influence gripping efficacy),
whereas in the I.H. the tail is brought around beside
the SPart on the away side of the coil.

NB:  The image that Roo has posted above is WRONG per
the indicated loading
(which is the right *end*) --it should
be loaded on the LEFT end (which is shown as tail not SPart).
The loading is to the bottom of the coil, and the loaded SPart
presses into, alongside, the trapped tail.


--dl*
====
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 06:57:03 PM by Dan_Lehman »

roo

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2011, 10:49:58 PM »

NB:  The image that Roo has posted above is WRONG per
the indicated loading
(which is the right *end*) --it should
be loaded on the LEFT end (which is shown as tail not SPart).
The loading is to the bottom of the coil, and the loaded SPart
presses into, alongside, the trapped tail.
Good point, Dan.  I think some of the reason ambiguity abounds in knot publications is that the underlying Pile Hitch is routinely loaded both ways even though one way has better properties. 
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Korg

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 12:55:06 AM »
So, just so I'm clear, both the icicle hitch and the pile hitch should be loaded on the left end, not the right?  Right?

Dan_Lehman

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 05:51:23 AM »
Arborists (at least one UK site) have used the "Icicle hitch"
by loading both ends --and there's a term for such hitches
vs those loading a single end--, yet carrying the boasts for
the knot arising from its original, single-end loading.

As for the pile hitch, you might play with it and see if
one way makes a difference to you.  (It's not so important
as w/the Icicle, which needs to grip, and so loading the
coil one way or another can matter much.)
(I think I favor loading the end that does NOT make
a u-turn/collar around the ends, but continues around
the object.)

--dl*
====

TheTreeSpyder

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Re: Sailor's GH, Icicle Hitch confusion
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 04:48:18 PM »
We would call a hitch pulled on 1 leg as open, and with both legs as closed.

The forces change to the lacing, including 2 bent legs of support (basket formation in sling lingo) rather than 1 bent leg of support (choke in sling lingo, whereby linear in sling lingo would by unleveraged/ bent leg of support).

Also, the double leg support / closed / bent basket formation is looked on as more safe, as there is no 'free' end to try to guard w/stopper.

Also, dual legged can be easier to 'break' free in sliding hitches to advance up the line or descend more troublefree.  In fact, adjusting the hitch usually involves unloading it, grabbing it, and then moving it up with body too.  But, some hitches are so premium to these purposes, that you can unload and climb up, and the hitch 'self tends' and doesn't need a free hand to move the hitch up, but if you fall, it loads and catches you!  As a work around, you can have a light ring below a not so friendly sliding hitch, and pull the 'bitter' end and have the ring 'tend' the hitch up to tighten.  But, to do this well, you'd want to choose a hitch, climbing line and hitch line , loaded just right to slide when wanted, and not seized to the host lifeline, so you'd have to work to 'break' it free; yet still lock properly if suddenly loaded and catch you.  This can take trial and error, as well as 'tuning' the assembly just so.