Author Topic: "Best of breed" knots?  (Read 72378 times)

Jimbo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2005, 12:34:45 AM »
Quote
Or, as described for a specific order of jumps:
"Take three turns of the rope round your hand, then:
1. Move center part (b) over right part.
2. Move new center part (c) over left part.
3. Move new center part (a) over right part. [NEW C. => ORIG. C. THUSLY]
4. Pull new center part (b) up to form the loop
5. For most satisfying results, remove hand before fairing or loading knot."

--dl*
====

First off (ere I alienate everyone), I distinctly recall the loops & weaving action from some knot or another...  Isn't there at least one or two more knots that start like this?  With the three loops and the hopping over this way & that??  Or do I need to play with a different knot for a while?

Okay, I'm still seeing the same structure as before, just smaller.  When you start your first-of-three turns, call the part you've nipped coming in from the "left" (as described) the "beginning".  Do your steps as listed, Right, Left, Right, BUT...  Between 4 & 5, after you've pulled up your "final loop", as you fair and dress the knot, do it slowly & watch where the "beginning" goes into the knot, makes a bight around the final loop, then goes right back out the same "hole".  That's what mine does, anyway!  That's where the Dyneema failed on me.  The bight formed around the final loop by the "beginning" end pulled the final loop back through, making, in effect, a big elaborate slipknot.  On my pocket pet rope it binds somewhat, but I can't strain it w/o drawing blood, so ...

Anyway, there's a "way out of the rabbit hole" for the final loop, unless it's already around something.  That's what I get, and that's what scares me.

Actually, (props to roo), roo had the best comment yet:
Quote
...it can shift into different configurations and contract.  The shape it assumes when tied is highly variable, making it somewhat difficult to ascertain its range of properties...

Nailed that one, big guy!!

Sometimes on my pocket pet (the same one I used to illustrate the Single Bottle Knot earlier), the "beginning" will pull the main loop partway back through, but the knot will cinch before it comes completely apart...  Whew!  That's a different look!!  That actually holds pretty well, BTW, insofar as I'm able to pull the ends w/o slipping (not much).  (I'm probably still thinking "life and death" too much, but with a 2000# "widowmaker" in my side yard right now I'm a little "distracted") ...

So I must ask (props to Roy): What is is used for?  I thought we were collecting the Best Knots to share with our less-well-informed neighbor...

So I'll play with it, as the hippity-hopping action is loads of fun, but the "neighbor" is going to learn the Alpine Butterfly!  Sorry. :(
Thank you all, for everything.  As of 6/6/6, I have changed my password to a random string (which I forgot), thereby assuring that anyone posting as "Jimbo" in the future will NOT be me.  Good luck!!!

KnotNow!

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2005, 02:01:42 AM »
Hi Jimbo,  Actually I was only responding to your comments on the farmers loop.  Someone else, several threads back suggested it for the original problem... the neighbor without a knot of his own.  My farmer friend would, when the baleing twine broke on a bale, tag on some more twine, then put a farmers loop at a convienent spot and use it to compound the pull, as in a truckers hitch.  I can't remember his bend at this moment but a couple of farmers loops and he could rebind the bale about as well as the machine did in the first place.  I think he had only one bend, one loop, one hitch.... but then it was a very small farm.  Too bad we are at opposite sides of the US.  I'd put my spurs on and we'd risk our necks taking down that widow maker.  Plenty of good knots for amature arborists.
ROY S. CHAPMAN, IGKT-PAB BOARD.

gaessne

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2005, 02:39:29 AM »
Ok, I'm a beginner. I'm looking for the "best" knots for the following job: I'm tying down a load (let's say a motorcycle) in the back of my pickup. I have metal ring tydowns on both the truck and the bike. I'm fairly sure I want to use two hitches for this. I'd like one of the hitches to be "tightenable" (maybe a driver's hitch?). The other one doesn't need this property. I'd like them both to be as strong as possible. Second to that, it'd be nice if they were both reasonably easy to untie (although I'd cut the knots off the ends of the rope without too much remorse - is this sacriligeous?) I'll be using bullrope (http://www.knotandrope.com/bullrope.htm), mostly because it seems to be the stronger/est of the ropes I've looked at. The knots can be complex, as long as there's a reference (somewhere) on how to tie them. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

p.s. I'm hoping that there's at least some consensus on the two best knots for the job...

roo

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2005, 03:16:41 AM »
Quote
Ok, I'm a beginner. I'm looking for the "best" knots for the following job: I'm tying down a load (let's say a motorcycle) in the back of my pickup. I have metal ring tydowns on both the truck and the bike. I'm fairly sure I want to use two hitches for this. I'd like one of the hitches to be "tightenable" (maybe a driver's hitch?). The other one doesn't need this property. I'd like them both to be as strong as possible. Second to that, it'd be nice if they were both reasonably easy to untie (although I'd cut the knots off the ends of the rope without too much remorse - is this sacriligeous?) I'll be using bullrope (http://www.knotandrope.com/bullrope.htm), mostly because it seems to be the stronger/est of the ropes I've looked at. The knots can be complex, as long as there's a reference (somewhere) on how to tie them. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

p.s. I'm hoping that there's at least some consensus on the two best knots for the job...

It's OK to start a new topic if you want.  It seems appropriate here.

As far as something "tightenable" goes, you may wish to consider something like this:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/Versatackle.html

If you do this, you may not need to use another hitch.  But if you are interested in hitches, here are a few selections:

http://notableknotindex.webs.com/knotindex.html

Have fun. ;)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 05:02:09 PM by roo »
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Dan_Lehman

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2005, 09:28:26 AM »
Quote
I'm tying down a load (let's say a motorcycle) in the back of my pickup. I have metal ring tydowns on both the truck and the bike. I'm fairly sure I want to use two hitches for this. I'd like one of the hitches to be "tightenable" (maybe a driver's hitch?). The other one doesn't need this property.

Conceivably your initial anchoring knot could be a loopknot; were you to make it
with a large/long eye, up about 2/3 of the span to the motorcycle, then the other
side's structure could be a few half-hitch/turns, the last/uppermost of which would feed
the line across to grab the first side just below the knot, between the eye legs
(so to prevent this connection from slipping up higher).  This connection would act
as a sort of "frapping turn", to pinch the anchoring legs into greater tension.

Quote
I'd like them both to be as strong as possible.

Not really:  you shouldn't be close to finding out any difference between various ways of
tying the rope--that would show poor cordage selection (or some extraordinary
circumstance!).  Given the suggested use & cordage, you've got nothing to worry about
for strength.

Quote
Second to that, it'd be nice if they were both reasonably easy to untie (although I'd cut the knots off the ends of the rope without too much remorse - is this sacriligeous?) I'll be using bullrope (http://www.knotandrope.com/bullrope.htm), mostly because it seems to be the stronger/est of the ropes I've looked at.


Yes, there'd be an audible gasp of horror (& also "Horreurs!" (?)) were this forum's members
to learn that you'd chopped that rope for this task.  (then a lunge for the fiddly bits)
A point to much knotting is being able to untie it (though there is also a fair amount that
doesn't get untied), esp. in pricey bullrope.

Whatever are you REALLY tying down?  --say an elephant?  Those bull ropes are
way strong for any usual tie-down application.  (I think that if you check with certain
webbing products suggested for a motorcycle, e.g., you'll find strengths around 3-6,000#?!
Common chain that might do such a job will be maybe 2-3,000#?
In getting such great strength, you're getting thickness & stiffness that might
frustrate tightening.  (And what dia. are those rings you're tying to--likely about
1cm & maybe thinner--which isn't good for the thick rope.)

Quote
p.s. I'm hoping that there's at least some consensus on the two best knots for the job...

That's the wrong hope, really.  There are many solutions to this problem; some might
turn on the question of how much rope you have--e.g., were you employing a long
bull rope normally used for lowering logs, and didn't care to cut it shorter, or if you are
buying the rope new per foot expressly for some job.
Indeed, I'd imagine that various folks here might each have different solutions
depending on their mood or maybe just what they'd NOT used the previous time!

But your sense of the solution is on target:  one side more staticly anchored,
then the other used to adjust tension and finish.  It COULD be the case that one
would want adjustability on both sides (for centering an object).
And some variation of the Trucker's Hitch could serve on each side, or just the one;
the other could have an Anchor/Fisherman's Bend (hitch), or a round turn (well,
given that thick rope, perhaps NOT!) & 2 Half-Hitches; or perhaps you'd not need
the MechAdvan. of the Trucker's H. and could tension manually well enough and tie
off with a turn/Half-hitch and backed up with a Rolling Hitch, putting an Overhand
stopper (or Slip-Knot) in the tail for security.

So far, all this discussion's been focused on the tie-down's legs; but what of the
exact nature of the thing tied down--tying to a bike's handlebars, or ... ?
That's another issue to address.

--dl*
====

neolyth

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2006, 10:15:46 PM »
hello all, i just found this thread while searching for good illustrations of speed and trick methods of tying the sheetbend and bowline...

but if you all don't mind i'll jump in with a vote for the sheetbend/bowline/slipknot as "the best knot"

my approach would probably madden the average neighbor over the fence, but i'm of the opinion that teaching someone one versatile knot and numerous ways of tying it and applying it would be most useful,
as well as providing opportunity for 'critical mass' if the student explored the knot relations and transformations:
slipknot to bowline
slipknot to sheetbend
sheetbend compared to bowline
one handed bowline
bowline under tension

conceptually starting with this bowline/sheetbend (an interpenetrating loop and cursive E)
and on from there, a person learning all that they can do and all of the pitfalls of the oldest and most versatile of knots...
[-a visual aid and almost a magic trick in itself, when tied as a sheetbend in 5-7mm line you can animate it by holding both ends of one line near the knot in one hand and both ends of the other line near the knot in the other hand, then pushing and pulling the knot to explode and contract it.]


best to you all,
i'll check back and look around this bbs now,
thanks for being here!

neolyth

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2006, 10:28:41 PM »
whupps i can't edit my post as a guest...

i just wanted to add to the list of related functions of "the best knot" that from the slipknot you can move into trucker's hitch'esque' mechanical advantage pulley systems...

realistically i'm voting for a 'best non-nuclear family of knots' ;) but my premise is that with an understanding of these a person could explore the interactions, understand the forces at work, and learn to choose the best application for the problem at hand... from there they would be in good position to appreciate more special purpose knots.

knots are more like verbs than nouns i think.

Andreas

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2018, 03:58:43 PM »
On page 3 Dan Lehmann mentioned a "half hitched bowline"

What does that mean? Abok number?

kilogulf59

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #53 on: August 19, 2018, 04:09:14 PM »
ABOK #1012. It's what's called a water bowline nowadays, if I'm not mistaken.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 04:14:16 PM by kilogulf59 »

Andreas

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2018, 04:17:48 PM »
No.

.. 1012 was mentioned additionally

kilogulf59

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2018, 07:29:07 PM »
OK...but this is what I found with regards to "half-hitched bowline"...

"The Water Bowline is described by Ashley as a Bowline with an extra half hitch (ABOK # 1012, p 186). It makes a secure loop in the end of a piece of rope."

Source: https://www.animatedknots.com/bowlinewater/

I searched and found nothing under that specific name...PM Dan and ask him.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 07:30:33 PM by kilogulf59 »

Dan_Lehman

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Re: "Best of breed" knots?
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2018, 08:19:27 PM »
On page 3 Dan Lehman [n] mentioned a "half-hitched bowline"

What does that mean? ABoK number?
(I should know this, but that was 2005 ... .
IIRC, ...)

No #,
but #1010 extended by taking the tail around
--taking it in the direction the SPart's draw pulls it
  the natural disposition--
the eye legs (both) and then tucking it out
through its just-made turn (hence the "half-hitch")

This can give adequate security of the material of
the knot to prevent loosening pretty well.  It can
also require a bit of care & maybe dressing and
maybe skipping this variation with inflexible rope
at the point where the tail begins this extension.


--dl*
====
and the central nipping loop.