Author Topic: Favorite Way to Tie Trucker's Hitch  (Read 117160 times)

sinthome

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2011, 12:46:40 AM »
Yeah, I dislike "truckie" as well. I thought it was an Aussie thing. So the loops in this video are bellringer's? I like that they pull free so fast and easy when you are done with the hitch. Versatackle with butterfly loops seems best for when you don't mind the extra time spent on untying.

roo

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2011, 04:29:30 PM »
Yeah, I dislike "truckie" as well. I thought it was an Aussie thing. So the loops in this video are bellringer's? I like that they pull free so fast and easy when you are done with the hitch. Versatackle with butterfly loops seems best for when you don't mind the extra time spent on untying.
You can use a Versatackle with Span Loops, or even Bell Ringer Loops.  I think I can completely remove a Versatackle with Span Loops faster than that guy in the video could remove his tangle with all the tucks and turns and re-tucks.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:31:37 PM by roo »
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TMCD

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #62 on: October 27, 2011, 01:31:21 PM »
@Roo, the clove hitch works fine whenever I use it atop my sport utility vehicle. I guess a snuggle hitch or slipped constrictor would obviously be more secure but it would be overkill from my experience's. I can get a ton of security from the first anchor being a clove hitch and have driven one hundred miles at a time with 75lb coolers cinched down with a TH...never had a problem. The CH does obviously have to be positioned correctly though, where the outer parts of the turn is taking the strain.

roo

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #63 on: October 27, 2011, 04:27:28 PM »
@Roo, the clove hitch works fine whenever I use it atop my sport utility vehicle. I guess a snuggle hitch or slipped constrictor would obviously be more secure but it would be overkill from my experience's. I can get a ton of security from the first anchor being a clove hitch and have driven one hundred miles at a time with 75lb coolers cinched down with a TH...never had a problem. The CH does obviously have to be positioned correctly though, where the outer parts of the turn is taking the strain.
I've never cared for the snuggle hitch and a constrictor isn't really a hitch.   But anecdotal evidence under undemanding conditions does not negate the clove hitch's security problems and vulnerabilities.   It'd be nice to start with a hitch that could stand up to a really bumpy trip.

There are simple hitches with better security and stability:
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/gnathitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/slippedbuntline.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/pilehitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/timberhitch.html
http://notableknotindex.webs.com/sailorhitches.html
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 08:00:21 PM by roo »
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TMCD

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2011, 12:37:54 AM »
One thing that seems to have happened in all of these discussions involving the Trucker's Hitch is overkill has reared it's ugly head. It's reared it ugly head whether we're talking about the midline loop, the anchor hitch etc. We've gotten a thumb's up or down list on various midline loops and what's comical is that many of the loops that make the thumbs down list are actually quite acceptable. The Fig 8 on a bight is VERY secure, not sure how it made the thumbs down list...possibly because it's not real easy to untie?

Let's say for example that we tie the TH using the Clove Hitch as the first anchor point, then we use a slipped fig 8 and of course tie off with two HH.
That VERY common method of tying the TH has been largely discredited by some folks on here, yet it stands up to very tough conditions and performs well probably on a daily basis around the globe.

IF I'm going down a VERY bumpy, pot hole filled road and have something precious to tie down, my method may change. The anchor point probably becomes a slipped constrictor or even two HH, the midline loop would be the Alpine Butterfly locked down with two HH. But this would be a special case as I've seen what kind of job the simple CH with a slipped fig 8 at the mid line can do.

sinthome

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2011, 08:43:25 AM »
as long as the rope stays taut and doesn't slip at the loop, isn't the pull direction stable? and doesn't this make the CH a perfectly acceptable option?

there really should be two categories for the TH, with distinctly different criteria-- a "permanent" TH and a "quick" TH. the latter would have the criterion that any loop(s) need to slip undone with zero effort besides a quick pull on the loosened rope, while the "permanent" should have loop(s) that are totally secure but that never jam. both categories should have the criteria of fast tying and setup and not jamming or slipping under expected conditions. the permanent version should, naturally, stand up to all the abuse you can throw at it, while the quick type should just be able to handle the moderate abuse of a regular road.

anyway, that is what i see as being the practical approach. i don't think anyone disagrees that some of the popular methods for tying a TH are quite inferior to others. but sorting out the winners requires two categories.

TMCD

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2011, 01:34:21 PM »
You say slipped loops aren't a good remedy but they work just fine EVERYDAY in the world we live in, most folks tying these trucker's hitches are not tying a fixed loop system. If you mean that they're a little easier to tamper with, then I'd agree with that statement. But even then, it would take some pretty boneheaded tampering to goof up a properly cinched down TH...and anybody with common sense knows not to mess with a tie down.

A fixed loop system should be used for a semi permanent TH, like the one I use for tying my jon boat down to the trailer. I use a constrictor at the first anchor point and a directional fig 8 on the bight and trust me, this is arguably the best (securest version) of a TH you can possibly come up with.

Your argument over the CH is very misleading because once it takes strain at a right angle, it's actually very secure. You say you can shake it loose, well sure you can because it's not designed to take stress and pull from different angles, only a right angle. Most hitches are designed to be right angle pulls...very few will properly take pull and strain from just any direction.

Having said all of this, I too like the detailed discussion here and I'm a knot junkie or I wouldn't be here.lol. I still like to keep things simple if I can, just because I know how to tie damn near any hitch, bend or loop, there's no sense in getting fancy if it's not called for IMO. This particular thread is going to impress upon the casual person that they MUST tie their TH with a fixed loop or it's not worth a nickel and that's just very misleading...that's my point. Most people who need a quick TH use the slipped midline loop of some sort and it's perfectly acceptable in the large majority off applications. I know a guy who moved furniture for a living, he tied his TH with a slipped overhand and said he's never had a problem with it...it's how the store manager/owner shows all new hires according to him.

roo

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2011, 04:41:47 PM »
as long as the rope stays taut and doesn't slip at the loop, isn't the pull direction stable? and doesn't this make the CH a perfectly acceptable option?

Since sinthome & TMCD aren't using the quote function, it makes it hard to figure out who they are addressing, but I will say that even though a Clove Hitch is especially vulnerable to direction changes, it is also vulnerable to jerking even without direction change.  It's also susceptible to slipping at higher loads.

Part of the Clove Hitch's problem is that there isn't a change of direction of the free end around the standing part to help put a stop to tendencies for the whole form to revolve.  This also happens to be why the Constrictor Knot isn't a good choice for an end hitch (among other reasons) though it may not be as obviously deficient as the Clove Hitch because of the difference in overall frictive force.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 04:44:24 PM by roo »
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xarax

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2011, 06:44:30 PM »
   A problem of the (two) loops based upon the slipped overhand knot, is the very sharp first curves of the free ends, and the ends of the bight.  An easy way to address this problem, is to form a nipping loop above the slipped overhand knot, and to pass the bight through it. Besides the fact that now the first curves are smoother, this possibility might be considered as an advantage of tying a slipped overhand loop - because it gives us the flexibility to beef it up that way, if, at any time after we have tied the simpler loop in the first place, we would decide that we should better need a more stable and stronger loop for our trucker s hitch.
   Depending upon the handness of the nipping loop, there are two different loops that can be tied this way, for each of the two slipped overhand loops, so there are four, in total, such loops that can be used in a trucker s hitch. ( See. the attached pictures ).
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xarax

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2011, 09:03:23 PM »
nice photos, xarax ! are there ABOK#s for those?

 Thanks, sinthome. My purpose was to show how we can improve the one  loop knot ( the simple slipped overhand loop ), by combining it with the other ( the simple nipping loop ). In fact, all that we have to do, is to form two simple nipping loops, and to link them by a simple bight formed by the intermediate line segment ( in the case of B1 and B2 loops), or by a line segment below the "lower" nipping loop ( in the case of A1 and A2 loops) : we make this bight pass through both eyes, the one after the other. So, the point here is not the final compound knots, but the procedure by which they are tied, and the need / reason which motivated us to tie them.
   I believe that it is not useful - in fact, it might well do more harm than good -  to attach the ABOK numbers and their corresponding images to such simple knots :  People tend to learn / memorize by heart those numbers and images, and disregard / forget the reasons that made us chose those particular knots, and not some others.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 11:04:13 PM by xarax »
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TMCD

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2011, 09:07:19 PM »
To me, the use of a common Bell Ringer's hitch is what I call a Wagoner's Hitch and doesn't have the security needed for my desires. The Span Loop is very well thought of around here but strangely enough, I've never been able to tie it the way it's presented in Ashley's Book. My Span Loop just doesn't "look" correct and I guess if someone showed me what I'm doing wrong, I might come around to it. It's simple enough to tie but I just don't get the desired look for some reason. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.

For a fixed loop, I think the Butterfly is the way to go because of it's ability to take a pull in any direction and it's fairly easy to untie. I've been going with the Fig 8 on the bight, it's the old fashioned way of tying the TH...somewhat of a pain if you intend on untying it though. I have tried the Span Loop with no luck at all. I'll admit though, I find myself tying slipped midline loops more often than not and they've held up very good for me. I've hauled a 75lb cooler on top of my SUV going 75MPH and the cooler didn't move an inch, I marked it and checked it from start to stop on a 100 mile trip. I used the slipped fig 8 in that scenario, with a CH at the original anchor point.

Xarax I wish I had your fertile mind for knotting matters, it's amazing how you can manipulate what's already out there and improve upon it with such ease.

xarax

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2011, 09:23:23 PM »
Xarax' solutions just posted basically turn the slipped Overhand into fixed loops.

   Right. Although the motivation was to beef up the slipped overhand loop. so we get more gentle first curves.

The loops were more difficult to untie than a Span (ABOK #1049) and an enhanced Bell Ringer (ABOK #173).

   The Span loop ( ABoK#1049) is not accompanied by the "pretzel" sign of Ashley for no reason !  :)  I do not believe that all those four loops behave the same way, but, of course, I do not doubt your conclusion, that they are harder to untie than the Span knot. I would like to test all the possible loops with, say, a quarter of the maximum and a half the maximum rope strength, and then compare the forces needed to untie them. There are so many TIB midline loops, who knows what we could discover after we test them in a systematic way...

   For a fixed loop, I think the Butterfly is the way to go because of it's ability to take a pull in any direction and it's fairly easy to untie. 

   Knot4u, what are your thoughts about the Alpine Butterfly loop ? How do you compare it with the Span loop ?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 10:30:21 PM by xarax »
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roo

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2011, 09:25:09 PM »
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Hrungnir

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2011, 10:12:13 AM »
In hard, stiff and rough materials such as polypropylene, I've experienced the Alpine Butterfly Loop to be very difficult to untie after a hard directional pull. I've used the Versatackle, but you should be able to reproduce a similar result using the Trucker Hitch as well.


Quote from: sinthome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQFyR153mXI
When trying to increase mechanical advantage, he might be better off using double loops and threading them separately. There will probably be less friction inside the loop(s) when there aren't two ropes interfering with each other.

In my experience, it very hard to maintain the tension after a really hard pull on the standing part. The fingers aren't strong enough to pinch the rope at the loop. It's clever to use roundturns, but I assume he will loose tension compared to a self-locking-mechanism.

xarax

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Re: Trucker's Hitch: Favorite Way to Tie
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2011, 02:07:39 PM »
   When trying to increase mechanical advantage, he might be better off using double loops and threading them separately. There will probably be less friction inside the loop(s) when there aren't two ropes interfering with each other.

  I guess you mean two loops arranged in a parallel  configuration. For two loops arranged in a series  configuration, see Reply#55 (1).

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1870.msg17414#msg17414

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