International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum
General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: staunchmop on August 23, 2012, 11:22:56 PM
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Hello,
I'm working with some 6mm solid braid nylon rope, and I'm trying to find the best way to finish it. I want something secure, permanent, and smooth. I have already tried melting the ends with a lighter, but the result is very cracked and sharp - sharp enough to snag on the rest of the rope whenever I try to work with it, which seems to be cutting strands out.
I'm thinking the best option is a whipping, but I'm not exactly sure how. The common whipping seems very prone to slipping, and I want a permanent solution. But a Sailmaker's whipping seems to rely on using a twisted rope. I've seen it mentioned that it could be used on a braided rope, but I don't see where I should tuck the twine under. (Also, if I do go with whipping, is it OK to use synthetic twine? I would like it to be waterproof).
The rope looks like this: http://secure.mycart.net/product_images/catalog21843/nylonSOLIDBRAID.jpg
Thank you very much!
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Hello,
I'm working with some 6mm solid braid nylon rope, and I'm trying to find the best way to finish it. I want something secure, permanent, and smooth. I have already tried melting the ends with a lighter, but the result is very cracked and sharp - sharp enough to snag on the rest of the rope whenever I try to work with it, which seems to be cutting strands out.
Try covering an electric burner with aluminum foil and turn the heat on just enough to melt the rope. You should be able to wipe molten rope in such a way that avoids sharp edges. If you get a sharp point at the center of the rope end, you can grind or abrade that off after it cools. Keep water nearby and maintain plenty of ventilation.
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Try the West Country Whipping, it's a series of overhand knots and it's very practical. I've used the Common Whipping, Perfected Whipping and West Country Whipping, the W. Country Whipping is the best of the lot. The Palm and Needle, Sailmaker's Whipping etc., were to involved for my taste, even though they're better than the first three I mentioned.
You could simply use tape as a whipping. I typically take a lighter and melt my rope ends just barely enough to make them hard. When tying the W. Country, try starting and ending with a Constrictor knot instead of the square knot that's typically mentioned.
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Hello staunchmop and welcome.
Depending on the use of the rope a neat solution is this product > http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip (http://www.plastidip.com/home_solutions/Plasti_Dip) and you can generally find it at the usual big box home improvement stores. Or order online. Comes in a variety of colors and even clean.
Some climbing equipment suppliers sell it as well.
Another fix is to use heat shrink tubing. This product is at those kinds of store also. You can shrink it on at the cut area and cut after shrinking. It will be like the ends of a shoelace (aglet).
Hope this helps.
SS
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When tying the W. Country, try starting and ending with a Constrictor knot
instead of the square knot that's typically mentioned.
Given that the west-country whipping is working with two ends
moving around the rope, how does one end with the constrictor
--which is a knot of a single strand, not two?!
(I do have an answer for this, but I'm curious about yours. ;) )
(IMO, the wcw is rather bulky/coarse; perhaps my favored
whipping stuff --miscellaneous fine stuff such as fish/mason line--
is relatively larger per whipped rope than others'?)
--dl*
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Search will get some results to help answer your question,
to provide "food for thought" --Search from the high level
("General" will do), so to look into various forums.
Here's what I wrote in one thread:
For materials, I like to put to use what might otherwise be
trash : beachcombed (and from-fishline-recycle-box-retrieved)
monofilament fishline, tea-bag strings (ha! ), cotton string
from undoing *burlap*(sisal?) 10# bags of Basmati rice,
colorful-wonderfully-thin-flat-strong strips of PP (PE?) bailing
twine, strong-colorful-supple mason line, and ... ?! (Nothing
*official*, you notice )
And re those "strips of PP (PE?) baling twine" I mean in fact
pulling strips from the thin twine, and not using the twine
intact. (The flat strips enable one to use novel whipping
methods, since wrapping over another wrap adds little bulk.)
In this thread I posted a photo of some whipping of half-inch
ropes with mason line (golden) and fishline (translucent);
these whippings use a "extended strangle knot" and a
common whipping finish. (msg#36)
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2225.msg17672#msg17672 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2225.msg17672#msg17672)
--dl*
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I melt the ends of nylon rope. I apply the heat of a flame slowly so that the melting or softening goes as deep as possible before the nylon becomes liquid. When the surface nylon becomes liquid, the natural tendancy is to form a mushroom. I wipe it down with a folded paper towel. This often leaves a spike. I then go after just the spike and mash it down. I have roughly hemispherical ends as a result.
Many shoes come with laces that are way too long. I would put some epoxy where I want to cut the lace and slide a piece of heatshrink tubing over that section. Heating the tubing makes that section round. After the epoxy has hardened I cut the tubing off and cut the lace, leaving a cylindrical end. Now I just put a couple drops of superglue on the lace, keep it in tension until the glue sets, and then cut the lace.
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When tying the W. Country, try starting and ending with a Constrictor knot
instead of the square knot that's typically mentioned.
Given that the west-country whipping is working with two ends
moving around the rope, how does one end with the constrictor
--which is a knot of a single strand, not two?!
(I do have an answer for this, but I'm curious about yours. ;) )
(IMO, the wcw is rather bulky/coarse; perhaps my favored
whipping stuff --miscellaneous fine stuff such as fish/mason line--
is relatively larger per whipped rope than others'?)
--dl*
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You do bring up a great point Dan and I'm not even sure I've got the right answer to it.lol. Of course in starting with the Constrictor I just middle a bight and go with it. What I did before on ending with it was to simply try and trap one of the ends under the ending Constrictor. You'll have to trim the "loose" end very close though and it should remain trapped under the Constrictor...better yet, tie a Double Constrictor for more mileage.
What was your thoughts on how to do it? Do you think my method would work?
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Hi staunchmop,
Homemade solution a little ***RECKLESS *** and *** DANGEROUS ***, but effective:
If you have a knife that you do not care a lot, with a blade enough sharp and not serrated,you can make red-hot the blade on the common kitchen stove(the tightness(and the heath) of the handle can be a problem!);at this point you can "slice" the rope, as when with bread;the ideal situation would be that at that moment the rope is a bit under tension;any burrs and ridges now can be easily corrected with the lighter,or as suggested above by roo(if you have an electric burner its solution is vastly more reasonable, as well are more reasonable all the other proposals above!).
Bye!
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Wrap the rope tightly with masking tape (maybe 1" wide) very close to the end. Cut the end off with a sharp knife approximately in the middle of the tape. Then melt the end (careful, the masking tape WILL catch fire). I use a propane torch for this. Smooth down any sharp edges of the melted rope & remove the tape. Works for me. :o
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When tying the W. Country, try starting and ending with a Constrictor knot
instead of the square knot that's typically mentioned.
Given that the west-country whipping is working with two ends
moving around the rope, how does one end with the constrictor
--which is a knot of a single strand, not two?!
(I do have an answer for this, but I'm curious about yours. ;) )
--dl*
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You do bring up a great point Dan and I'm not even sure I've got the right answer to it.lol.
Of course in starting with the Constrictor I just middle a bight and go with it.
What I did before on ending with it was to simply try and trap one of the ends
under the ending Constrictor. ....
What was your thoughts on how to do it?
Do you think my method would work?
Some long time ago someone wrote to me in presenting decorative
knotwork, and he said something about using back-2-back
constrictors if I remember --and I was confused about it then,
but might have since figured out what he'd done (which I
didn't pursue at the time, alas).
Here's my solution :
with tail-H, make a half-hitch on the whipped rope
(as though one were doing French whipping) ;
then bring tail-T and simply tuck it out through the
half-hitch as though finishing a constrictor --i.e.,
making an overhand with tail-H, which has provided
the crossing-part of the (now) constrictor-like finish.
There are ways to take this solution further in crossings
and hence security, but a key is effectiveness in the doing.
(Whereas, tying a constrictor in one tail will be hard to do
so that it is set tight --which is usually done by pulling both tails.)
--dl*
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Hmm, that's an interesting idea Dan and I'll have to try it. I certainly know that one can tie a constrictor from one end of rope, but as you stated, can we properly tighten it so it's becomes secure.
I like French Whipping too, what would be a better way to secure the end in that scenario?? I've never been a big fan of the way Ashley and others describe tucking it back under the last few HH...not even sure how that part works. Any ideas Dan?
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Wow, thanks for all the responses! I've managed to melt it with tape (don't have an electric burner handy, unfortunately), with much better results than before. But I am still interested in trying something like the Sailmaker's whipping. Can anyone point me to some guidelines for doing such a whipping on braided rope? I can only find instructions for normal twisted rope, it seems.
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(http://captnmike.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/mikes-quick-rope-whipping_thumb.jpg?w=244&h=209)
http://captnmike.com/2011/10/26/mikes-quick-rope-whipping/ (http://captnmike.com/2011/10/26/mikes-quick-rope-whipping/)
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Wow, thanks for all the responses! I've managed to melt it with tape
(don't have an electric burner handy, unfortunately),
Good! Yes, using tape is a way to tame the reaction and
give control on shaping the result. (Frankly, if you don't have
electric and have gas, I'd say "forturnately" to that! --for the
general use, if not for rope work as well.)
But I am still interested in trying something like the Sailmaker's whipping.
Do you not understand the extended strangle knot?
I'm puzzled, for (1) tying the ESK whipping requires at most only
readily available/common tools --not a stout needle & palm--,
and (2) enables considerable tightening (given strong-enough
whipping material) after forming the structure --not needing
to make the thing so tight as one works. And where significant
tightening is possible --rope large enough to take strong enough
whipping--, that tightness should suffice to keep the whipping
in place (devoid of penetration through the rope). Still, it is
possible to amend the knotting to incorporate putting the
whipping through the line at some point or other.
Hmmmm, I'm dreaming up some interesting whipping structures
with a single punch-through of a bight of whipping, leaving a
long-enough tail leg to work on one side, finishing with just
enough to send along the line for bury on the other side,
which might be done as common whipping (or maybe some
structure(s) not-so-common !) !?
Again, there are many ways to skin this cat; i.p., there are
many that use common materials and readily available
techniques & tools. (I used to whip both ends of a "play
rope" the same, out of a sense of decorum ; now, though,
I tend to do the ends differently, to explore variety --the
spice of life!) The use of strips from PP bailing twine has
been my most recent discovery, and I like that stuff for
its strength and flatness, which enables knotting that
would be too *coarse* in round material. (I've found
twine in white, orange, blue, green, & red.)
;D
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Hmm, that's an interesting idea Dan and I'll have to try it. I certainly know that one can tie a constrictor from one end of rope, but as you stated, can we properly tighten it so it's becomes secure.
NB: the constrictor orients the tails to lie perpendicular
to the bound object(s); whereas the strangle makes them parallel.
For whipping purposes, the latter seems a better fit.
I like French Whipping too, what would be a better way to secure the end in that scenario??
I've never been a big fan of the way Ashley and others describe tucking it back under the last few HH
...not even sure how that part works. Any ideas Dan?
The common whipping structure makes for a more secure
finish, and is easily done. (And, it might be used in the first case,
of securing the two tails of west country whipping
--just a different approach into what might better be more
than a mere half-hitch in the first-shaped end!).
One can take an extra measure of forming this finish loosely
enough to take the tail out through it's final turn, then
hauling the turns down tight, then hauling the tail out
the last tuck snug --my thinking being that there will
not be very little draw on the tail's final tuck, and that
u-turn into it will arrest whatever draw might come
on the tail through the multi-wraps. --a battle with time.
In the simpler case, though, it's rather easy to put on
the finishing wraps pretty tightly, then haul them fast
by the now-bound-by-them tail,
in contrast to somehow doing that per-Ashley tucking
under some several prior half-hitches, IMO.
--dl*
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For double braid I use the whipping as posted by @asemery in Reply # 13 - http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4026.msg24078#msg24078
For quick whipping I use waxed whipping twine (appropriate size) and one or two Double Constrictor Knots - reef the knots down tight and you will need to cut them off -
I have used Double Constrictor Knots on three strand line up to 1.5 inches in diameter - used about 1/8 inch braided Dacron line and reefed the knot as tight as I could - worked well
If you are burning (melting) the end of a line - I found that you need to tape the ends of the line to keep things together - using a flame usually sets the end of the line or tape on fire for a moment - better to heat up an old knife blade if you can - I have a hot knife now so I can cut and fuse the line at the same time - then I put a whipping on the end of the line -
If it makes any difference almost all my line use is on boats
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I really like Cap. Mike's version of a quick whipping, that looks super strong.
I've decided I'll probably start using the Double Constrictor for my whippings. It's so much faster and easier to tie and it certainly appears more than capable as a whipping in it's own right. One knot I've tried to master is the Boa Knot and I just don't like it. The D. Con. is easier for me to tie.
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Thanks, I'll definitely try that whipping on braided rope!
Also, Dan, I am in fact a bit confused about your strangle knot whipping. It's a bit hard for me to reproduce from your written description earlier in the linked thread (I don't have the best sense for whipping knots, at this point). But I'd like to give it a try, if it works as well as you say and is easy to tie! Also, I respect the way you recycle materials for your whippings, but I have plenty of twine on hand :)
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Generally I use a strangle knot with 3 or 4 wraps around a kirby grip (in the USA a Bobby pin*) using the round end to pull the twine back through to complete the knot.
*For those unfamiliar with either here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_pin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_pin)
Barry
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Generally I use a strangle knot with 3 or 4 wraps around a kirby grip (in the USA a Bobby pin*)
using the round end to pull the twine back through to complete the knot.
Ha, it just now occurs to me that one could effect the strangle
using common whipping technique : i.e., set up the central
overhand crossing of the tails AND THEN make the wraps around
it all (which though requires that one has access to the rope end),
and pull out the excess on setting it tight --which, yes, should
see considerable build-up of torsion from the wrapping.
... which leads me to muse about other techniques & structures,
of strangles in a series ... !
:)
--dl*
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Also, Dan, I am in fact a bit confused about your strangle knot whipping.
The structure is simple to describe : it's a multiple strangle knot
--with the particular "multiple" selected according to the
materials and other concerns. Given that whipping generally
runs longer along the rope (about equal to its diameter,
maybe longer), I add wraps to the strangle towards that
lengthening.
And as I found that with more wraps the knot's buried
crossing-part ("overhand") seemed too short, I put in a
2nd tuck/twist of that --two vs. one (the same sort of thing
done with a the surgeon's knot compared to the square/reef ).
(The additional tuck can be made with one end after making
the knot w/just one tuck --like the way to make a constrictor
from a clove hitch (though, with multiple wraps, one might
need a little working to get the twists evenly beneath wraps).
In the 5/16" to 1/2" or so ropes I play with, nylon mason line
seems to work well with 5 or 6 wraps (as counted looking at
the face where one can see each end ; add 1 to looking at
the parallel parts on the opposite side), and the nylon fish
line I've used needs more, 7-9 (it's less flexible and the
center double twist runs longer).
To this base, I wanted a way to be efficient with material
(i.e., not having to estimate length and then cut off a lot),
do tried starting with the initial end short (with a stopper
end for purchase of forceps/pliers/fingers), and then the
finishing tuck done with a bight --so that after the
adding of a common whipping finish with this bight,
I would haul out line and trim it most efficiently, only the
slight length of the initial end being lost to the cause!
Along the way, I realized that other things could be done,
such as --upon completing the strangle part but yet to
tighten the common whipping closure-- pulling some
of the rope fibres back over the strangle and tucking them
beneath turns of the finish. (This isn't something readily
possible with solid braid, I guess.)
Only when making a reply above did it occur to me that
the strangle knot could be tied with common whipping
technique (which, re torsion, might not suit some stuff)!
To emphasize : one can build the strangle without much
tension, AND THEN pull hard on the tails to set it TIGHT.
I do use pliers or pound the knot with something hard
(or rolling it could work) as a means to getting the
tension concentrated at the initial turns at each end
of the body worked into the center turns --which I believe
does happen, although I accept that some of the seeming
evening-out of tightness could come from simply losing
some of that tension to the tails (drawing them back in).
None of others' whippings that I've held in hand have
had such tightness as I can get. YMMV.
This seems like a big plus, IMO.
That noted, where one works with lighter materials
or more frictive ones --where it won't be so easy to
deliver much tension into a mulit-wrapped structure,
the binding will be less and the whipping vulnerable
to being slid off (when untying knots, or otherwise).
Other techniques work to help, here, such as somehow
passing the whipping through the rope, and using
a whipping in which one puts tension on each turn
as it's built (e.g., French whipping).
Or that pulling-back-of-some-rope-fibres over the
initial whipping body to be bound beneath a later
put on binding, so that these would have to be
pulled free before the whipping could slide off ... .
--dl*
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For cutting rope, I got one of those cheap wood burning kits with an exacto blade cutter attachment.