International Guild of Knot Tyers Forum

General => Practical Knots => Topic started by: Dan_Lehman on February 25, 2008, 08:47:07 PM

Title: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 25, 2008, 08:47:07 PM: How many of you are at least occasionally in touch with, or even able to reach
out to, some actual knot-using activities, and able to observe what is actually
put to use by some user group?

With my own limited observations --sometimes pure serendipity--, I've come across
knotted structures unlike anything I've found in literature. "In The Wild", what
users apply will often come from their own sources of hand-me-down knowledge,
and maybe some in-use trial and error and modifcation of common knots into the
particular (even peculiar) things that they tie. Sometimes the result is rather awkward,
sometimes ingenious; one must presume that it usually suffices (though might not be
beyond improvement).

My current keen interest is in the ropework of commercial fishers ("ComFishKnots"),
to be distinguished from the fiddly fine stuff of anglers, btw. Here I find Half-hitched
structures all over --Clove & Reverse Groundline hitches, seizings that are built up of
Half-hitches, other seizing hitches that employ Half-hitches. And I just realized
that the knot shown in kN62:07a (top) (Knot News--IGKT-PAB) as a (false!) "Samisen"
structure loopknot was one I saw, more or less, in a conch pot bridle in Port Norris,
(south) New Jersey USA (near Bivalve, just downstream from Bridgeton, a port where
Ashley "found" his famous "Oysterman's Stopper") ! In the 3-leg bridle to the round
plastic-drum-slice pot, one piece of rope makes the 1-2 legs and a longer rope comes
into this in the form of ABOK #1462 "Heaving-line Bend" (ha!) and its end goes
out as the 3rd leg, stoppered into the pot side. (So, all ends are loaded, variously.)
In this token-knot, the materials were of similar nature; my notes weakly recall that
the 3rd-leg & then snood line might've been a little thicker than the 1-2-legs piece,
but hardly the thin-2-thick hitching presented by Ohrvall/Svensson/Ashley/et-al..

And I've also found some unusual knots used by rockclimbers at a nearby cliff,
such as a pseudo-Grapevine bend where the Dbl.Overhand components were
oriented & loaded as Reverse Anchor Bend/Hitches (presumably for easier loosening).

So, collectively, what is our reach in viewing the in-use knotting world?
How many of you sometimes can stroll a beach and see or even collect washed-up
flotsam-jetsam cordage clumps? Aside from providing some spare utility or "play"
ropes, these can provide knot-knowledge insights. Knots In The Wild!

--dl*
====

ps: Welcome to Practical Knots!!!
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on February 27, 2008, 01:03:28 AM: Quote
So, collectively, what is our reach in viewing the in-use knotting world?
How many of you sometimes can stroll a beach and see or even collect washed-up
flotsam-jetsam cordage clumps? Aside from providing some spare utility or "play"
ropes, these can provide knot-knowledge insights. Knots In The Wild!

--dl*
====

ps: Welcome to Practical Knots!!!

What a fantastic inaugural piece for our new board, and who better to write it.

Thank you Dan for the perfect launch.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: TheTreeSpyder on March 11, 2008, 11:00:03 AM: i pass up know working knots that come my way. Tents at carnivals, farm workers, some rock climbing etc. All ways trying to distill out the common elemeants to find the building blocks/modules that can be assembled in different fashions. But, mostly; mine is from tree werk, climbing, tie downs etc.; including own experimeants of all etc.

Not all of us live near ancient fishing and shipwreck grounds! ;D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 12, 2008, 04:55:35 AM: Quote from: TheTreeSpyder on March 11, 2008, 11:00:03 AM
Not all of us live near ancient fishing and shipwreck grounds! ;D

No, not I, even. But some do travel (say, vacation), and beyond examining
the bindings (or what's bound between) of bikinis, there is opportunity for
noticing numerous nautical knotted niceties!
En gard!

;D

Now, things have gotten mighty quiet on this knotting forum on such an invitation.
--not encouraging.

:(
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: dfred on April 26, 2008, 02:44:21 PM: Great idea for a thread, but we need more pictures! I was on the Alameda/Oakland<>San Francisco Ferry last year and saw some fairly lame knots used to secure a gate in the upper deck railing. I took a few pics with a friend's camera, but never got copies. I'll see if I can get them.

I've been watching the Discovery Channel's show "Deadliest Catch" and find myself spending lots of time trying to figure-out what knots are being used. It appears the method for making the bridles for the crab pots varies from boat to boat. It seems most all use a clove-hitch within each of loop of the bridle to stabilize it, but the method of forming the loop seems to vary. Some appear to be splices (or very compact knots) covered by chafing gear, others are more bulky and look somewhat like single or double fisherman's loops but they could just be highly compacted bowline variants or something else. I wish I had HD and some sort of Tivo-like device, as nothing stays still on these boats for very long, but I don't watch enough TV to make that worthwhile. :)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 27, 2008, 06:08:00 AM: Quote from: dfred on April 26, 2008, 02:44:21 PM
I've been watching the Discovery Channel's show "Deadliest Catch" and find myself spending lots of time trying to figure-out what knots are being used. It appears the method for making the bridles for the crab pots varies from boat to boat. It seems most all use a clove-hitch within each of loop of the bridle to stabilize it, but the method of forming the loop seems to vary. Some appear to be splices (or very compact knots) covered by chafing gear, others are more bulky and look somewhat like single or double fisherman's loops but they could just be highly compacted bowline variants or something else.

Ditto (offset by some years--was ca. 2005, IIRC, that I'd access to cable & watched...).
The expected knot for a 2-leg pot bridle is the Overhand LK--simple, well known.
(I can't imagine a Bwl there.) And for securing the legs to the pot sides, a Clove H.
with end secured somehow--often tucked into the lay, w/ or w/o a HHitch first.

But IIRC, I too was curious about some bridle center LK, and tried to get a response
from the Nowegian-captained crew about it, who I guess where whose boat had
featured it.

A rockclimber once crabber informed me of the favor of the Carrick Bend in the
stiff, hard-laid potwarp; and that I could see being tied one time by two guys
(one forming a crossing knot in one line while the other completed the Carrick
Bend with the opposite rope's Crossing knot).

Am I correct that the more recent Deadliest Catch series is new material?
(The original came at I think the end of the system in which boats were competing
for an imposed overall quota, and this was considered to induce dangerous
practices, so it was dropped for another system.)

They also did a series (go with a winner!) on lobster fishing of the east coast,
which reportedly touched upon the criminal (-like) competitive bad tricks done
in the course of this. As previously noted, I've had some opportunities to get up
close & personal with some lobster fishermen.

(And there is an arboknot lurking on this site from time to time ... )

:)
Title: Sorry for posting so late in thie thread!
Post by: Nadiral on May 01, 2008, 09:42:17 PM: I'm a biologist, and my trade is the growth of edible mushrooms. These are some knots we use at the farm:

1. A sling configured as an auto-equalizable loop, for manipulating the polyethylene cylinders filled with straw, wich are used as a substrate, when sowing the seed --i. e. scattering it.

2. A constrictor knot to close said cylinders.

3. A mooring hitch to hang them. We periodically adjust it so that our "fake logs" remain straight and about 70% of the load is supported by the floor.

4. A trucker's hitch for taking the harvest to the market.

5. Recently, Peter Suber's sliding chinese crown (in the past, our knots of choice where the adjustable hitch, the tarbuck hitch or a simple tautline) and a prusik for to set up tarps for protecting the bales of straw.

Others:

The mexican nail; not a knot strictu senso, but used quite frecuently. Consists of a piece of wire twisted over itself, kind of half a catpaw.

Since pre-hispanic times, the indigenous people of Mexico have used the mecapal --kind of an extended bandana of weaved sisal-- for carrying loads as a backpack. We move, mostly, packed wheat or millet, but also bulding materials an shredded wood. Sometimes we substitute this device with a sheepshank.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on June 01, 2008, 07:18:27 PM: Great Thread Dan, just found it today and have to say it addresses my main interest in knotting, which is practical ropework where rope (and knots) are used to achieve some end unatainable by the Unaided Naked Ape.

I work in Electricity Supply, 20 yrs a cable jointer and the last 8 a fault technician on underground and overhead networks up to 33kv. Much use of knots and ropework as in many industries has been supplanted by manufactured devices and gizmos, a trend I deplore as "de-skilling" the trade to the extent almost any monkey on the street can make a reasonable fist of it with a few weeks training.

Knots in past or current use to my knowledge include:
Timber hitch with or without one or several Half Hitches (dragging poles and pulling in cables),
Half Hitches stopped and faired with Insulating tape (pulling in cables),
Rolling Hitch ( my personal favourite for cable pulling as you can pull then slide to take another bight in constricted spaces, a totally magic knot that always impresses the onlooker!)
Bowline (lowering casualty in Pole Top Rescue and any place you need a rope eye),
Bale Sling Hitch (lifting oil drums), Ring Hitch ( in a sling at pole top to attach Yale and Klein for tensioning conductors), Cow Hitch (in a Linesmans Sash line to raise tools and materials to pole top). These last 3 the same knot formation with different applications.
Eye Splice, Short Splice, Back Splice (in the days when people took pride in their ropes),
Contractors Splice in Laid and/or Braided line- Eye and Straight,(Pulling in Cables),
Prussic Knot (Tree Climbing), (and the occasional unofficial street lamp ascent),
Lots O' Insulating Tape for Stoppings, Bindings and Whippings,
Truckers Hitch, RT&2HH, and Clove Hitch, (Lashing loads and pulling leaning poles into plumb)
Various Tackles, Blocks, Shackles, wire and chain pulls, Drum & Capstan Winches etc

And that's not to mention all the Guys Who Just Can't Tie Knots and use any number of Granny's, Tangle Hitches, and Bastard Loops to get the job done, then cut them off and start again- it make me old heart bleed to see 'em!

That's all I can think of for now, I might add some more as I remember them- it's been nearly thirty years y'know!!

Cheers, PwH

also constrictor knot and /or common whipping for terminating belting papers and core insulation papers when jointing 11 and 33 kv cables.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: dfred on June 03, 2008, 04:46:49 PM: During a recent trip to Europe one of my sub-projects was to collect some pictures of knots "in the wild" for this thread. The trip primarily saw me in Amsterdam and Prague, which is where all of the following pictures were taken. The canals of Amsterdam, and more specifically the boats moored in them, provided many chances to observe knots in the wild. Mostly it was standard bowlines, eye splices, random agglomerations of turns and tucks -- the standard stuff one sees anywhere. I did note that only one of the many bowlines I saw in NL was of the so-called Dutch variety. :) Here is a brief tour of the more notable knots I observed, with captions below each image.

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1000452.jpg.small.jpg)
Of all the knots I saw on the canals of AMS this was the most notable: a Lobster Buoy Hitch (#1839). Given the otherwise non-notable state of knots on this boat, I was left wondering if this was an intentional use of the LBH, or simply a statistical fluke where a random attempt at a two-half-hitches class knot ended up as a LBH. Hard to say, but still a LBH observed in the wild...

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1000587.jpg.small.jpg)
This image was taken at the Amsterdam Jewish Historical Museum (http://www.jhm.nl/). It is a glass mezuzah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezuzah), a Jewish door post marker used to fulfill a mitzvah, or biblical commandment. It is rendered in glass tube with an overhand knot in each end, inside is a parchment scroll inscribed with bible verses. It's unclear how the glass would be worked with the paper inside, so there may be a trick like breaking the tube inside the knot, inserting the scroll, and then re-gluing. But still an interesting place to find knots, and in an interesting knotting media. (Lighting was very difficult and taken through a glass case, so not the best image.)

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1000729.jpg.small.jpg)
While I saw many less-than-stellar examples of knotting, most seemed up to the task at hand, if only by virtue of the number of wraps and tucks. However this knot seen in Prague's Old Town wins for the worst knot I saw on my trip. It appeared this hook was actually used for hoisting stuff to the top of a 6-7 story scaffolding. I seriously thought about retying it with something more reasonable, but figured it was best to avoid the possibility of some Czech construction worker coming over and roughing me up for messing with his equipment.

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1000845.jpg.small.jpg)
This image and the next two were taken at the Prague Castle complex, within the "Powder Tower" where an exhibit of "Military headgear through the ages" was taking place. The English caption for this hat read, "Home guard shako model 1826, Bavaria."

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1000849.jpg.small.jpg)
Detail of the fancy knotted terminals to the main chain sinnet on the above hat.

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1000863.jpg.small.jpg)
English caption: "Hussar officers' shako model 1850, Austria"

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1010034.jpg.small.jpg)
And finally, one knot of my own making... I carry a roll-up toiletries kit which when unrolled hangs very nicely from horizontal towel bars. However since many hotels, homes, etc. don't have a horizontal bar in a reasonable location I carry a short length of braided cord (lawnmower starter-cord for the curious) which I used to hang the kit from whatever is available. In the apartment in Prague, there was a serious dearth of options, other than this smooth downward pointing window lever. I always seem to forget exactly how to tie an icicle hitch when I'm in the field, but I remembered seeing something like this on this forum (and in ABOK, #1755) and tried recreating it. I didn't remember how it was finished, so I tried a couple things. I found this ground-line hitch-esque finish to be both elegant and highly effective. Once properly tensioned and adjusted this was absolutely bomb-proof when kept under tension. If anybody can provide a pointer to that thread where this sort of knot was previously discussed, it would be appreciated. [EDIT: Found the thread - A knot by Design (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=542.0)]
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 04, 2008, 05:38:20 PM: Quote from: dfred on June 03, 2008, 04:46:49 PM
During a recent trip to Europe one of my sub-projects was to collect some pictures of knots "in the wild" for this thread.
The trip primarily saw me in Amsterdam and Prague, which is where all of the following pictures were taken.
Bravo, DFred!!

Quote
The canals of Amsterdam, and more specifically the boats moored in them, provided many chances to observe knots in the wild.
Mostly it was standard bowlines, eye splices, random agglomerations of turns and tucks -- the standard stuff one sees anywhere.
Although, if more attentive observation and analysis of such knotted structures is made,
it might become understood that there is more of a (natural?) pattern to such workings
than might be superficially presumed.
E.g., I'll have a point re this on the loosely formed hitch below.

Quote
I did note that only one of the many bowlines I saw in NL was of the so-called Dutch variety. :)
Which says MUCH about the knotting LITERATURE & hearsay, and much less about de knoop Nederland--NB!

Quote
Of all the knots I saw on the canals of AMS this was the most notable: a Lobster Buoy Hitch (#1839).
Are you sure of this--i.e., did you examine it more closely than from the photo's perspective,
to ascertain w/certainty the path of the parts?
For I don't see #1839 here: I see the SPart (or hoofdtouw) making a HHitch turn around a line, as, indeed,
like the start of 2HHs--same orientation to object, i.p.--, and that denies it being a Lobster Buoy Hitch. In fact,
it is what I've called (on my own discovery--"invention"--of it) a "Collared Half-Hitch" noose, albeit not in the exact
geometry that would readily reveal the motivation for this name, where the hitch is slide up snug to a hitched ring.
The end is jammed up into the intial HH turn.

But, admittedly, the path of the two ends (SPart & loose/cut end) is ambiguous; the eye can follow either
to either turn of the knot. BUT, there are reasons to believe my assertion--see below.

Quote
Given the otherwise non-notable state of knots on this boat,
Oh, but re another hitch you've captured nicely to share w/us might tell directly upon this question!

Quote
I was left wondering if this was an intentional use of the LBH, or simply a statistical fluke where a random attempt
at a two-half-hitches class knot ended up as a LBH. Hard to say, but still a LBH observed in the wild...
--and not knot-imaginations of an author! --parrotings from past parrotings from ...

Scrutinize that old, growth-decorated (enhanced/camouflaged) rope; see the portion just beyond
the hitch--there is a distinct slight dog-led bend in it, starting w/the 3rd strand on upper side & thereabouts.
This, I submit, indicates a preliminary state to achieving the knotted structure that resulted.
.:. If one were to (re- (!!))capsize this hitch by pulling on the end etc., it will take the form of a ...
SquaREef knot (forming the eye). And that, I submit, is the genesis of what you saw.
For that is a traditional or natural tying method (or, in Pieter van de Griend terminology, algorithm);
and what the same sort of tying & capsizing would take to get #1839 is anything but natural
(just as tying a Thief is more trouble than tying the Reef). And see below, as forewarned ...

(Incidentally, CLDay's Art of Knotting & Splicing has a different orienation of the so-called
Lobster Buoy hitch than Ashley; and Day's version could be differently dressed, to boot.
Day's image matches what THIS image would be showing were my arguments above wrong
(but I think not)--in any case, a Cow Hitch in reverse orientation to noosed object, the end lying
parallel to SPart, rather than taking a pass on one or the other side of the SPart. Ashley, in
contrast, definitely positions the end tp run out between SPart and over part, whereas it could
also go on the other side, between SPart of noose & SPart of noose's hitch--the former
seems maybe less secure.)

Quote
While I saw many less-than-stellar examples of knotting, most seemed up to the task at hand, if only by virtue of the number of wraps and tucks. However this knot seen in Prague's Old Town wins for the worst knot I saw on my trip. It appeared this hook was actually used for hoisting stuff to the top of a 6-7 story scaffolding. I seriously thought about retying it with something more reasonable, but figured it was best to avoid the possibility of some Czech construction worker coming over and roughing me up for messing with his equipment.
Well, here is clear evidence of the natural way of casting multiple "overhand"/simple knots
to form a hitch. If the force were adequate to capsize these multiple knots, you'd find here
possibly THREE HHitches--nb: the Simple knots combine in the Granny orientation to each other.
In fact, such multiplicities often capsize into rather surprising loopknots, with the SPart staying
turned and the end jerking straight, at the eye/object-end of the structure. One can find various
results, and variously of the "Cow (Reef)" vs "Clove (Granny)" orientations.

Quote
This image and the next two were taken at the Prague Castle complex, within the "Powder Tower" where an exhibit of "Military headgear through the ages" was taking place. . . .
And HERE, we must invalidate your passport into the Practical section! ;D ;D

Quote
And finally, one knot of my own making... I carry a roll-up toiletries kit which when unrolled hangs very nicely from horizontal towel bars. However since many hotels, homes, etc. don't have a horizontal bar in a reasonable location I carry a short length of braided cord (lawnmower starter-cord for the curious) which I used to hang the kit from whatever is available.
A knotter must carry cord--passport to persistent pleasures!

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Mrs Glenys Chew on June 04, 2008, 11:49:05 PM: Thanks for sharing those pictures with us, DFred. I really enjoyed them.

Regards

Glenys
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on June 06, 2008, 01:37:34 PM: Hi DFred,

Great post, thank you for bringing us these images.

Naturally, I was particularly impressed with your use of the KC Hitch (from A Knot by Design) - an aesthetically fine rendition although I have to admit that today I use the Dog 'n Tails method of tying it - middle the cord and tie an OH loop then garter the two cords up the fixed object and finish with a 'shoelace' knot for easy release, then hang the load in the OH loop.

Re the Lobster Pot - I have to stand with Dan on this one and put one more small indicator into the discussion to support the position.

(http://dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080603/p1000452.jpg.small.jpg)

Look carefully at the twist state of the rope. The 'dog legged' portion is tightly twisted while the wrap near the dog leg has slightly opened under a reversal of the twist. If you tie a square knot (left handed), then capsize it, you will see that as the collar rolls over it takes on the negative twist necessary to make this geometrical change exactly as seen in this perfect shot.

Keep them coming.
Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on June 07, 2008, 03:23:06 PM: This dashing young man is dressed with the finest round turn finished with a Reef knot.

I found him on the Kerry Greyhound Connection website http://anton.immink.co.uk/kgc/availablehounds.html (http://anton.immink.co.uk/kgc/availablehounds.html)- his name is William (Will) and apparently he is looking for a home.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: dfred on June 13, 2008, 06:56:36 PM: Regarding the LBH vs. capsized reef knot, I was reasonably confident of my identification when actually looking at it, but both your arguments are quite convincing regarding a much more likely mode of formation. I was not able to examine the back side of the knot, as that would have required boarding, which I didn't feel was appropriate, though I did consider it. :) My assumption of intent on the knotter's part was probably unwarranted. Interesting how the "natural" way of making knots, as you both allude to, needs to be unlearned (or at least controlled) in becoming truly proficient with them. And not surprisingly, yet again, a 2D representation of a knot turns out to be ambiguous... I wouldn't be at all surprised if this knot were still there; it's somewhere on a boat towards the northern end of one of the canals of the Western Canal Belt, north of Westermarkt. (only 1/2 ;) )

Quote from: Dan_Lehman
.:. If one were to (re- (!!))capsize this hitch by pulling on the end etc., it will take the form of a ...
SquaREef knot (forming the eye). And that, I submit, is the genesis of what you saw.
For that is a traditional or natural tying method (or, in Pieter van de Griend terminology, algorithm);
and what the same sort of tying & capsizing would take to get #1839 is anything but natural
(just as tying a Thief is more trouble than tying the Reef). And see below, as forewarned ...

Dan, I don't know whether you intended to specifically imply it, but it is interesting to note that a LBH is actually a capsized Thief's Knot loop, something I'd not noted before. I did realize that the LBH doesn't "self dress" nearly as consistently as the buntline hitch, perhaps this is due to its opposing turns and comparatively unbalanced nature?? The BLH seems almost magical in this regard when drawn up, though it obviously can be forced to take on some odd shapes (e.g. four-in-hand style with the SPart and free end parallel). And incidentally I never realized it, but the initials LBH and BLH themselves have a certain congruence with the knots they represent...

Quote from: Dan_Lehman
Quote from: dfred
I did note that only one of the many bowlines I saw in NL was of the so-called Dutch variety. Smiley
Which says MUCH about the knotting LITERATURE & hearsay, and much less about de knoop Nederland--NB!

I've just posted most of the other knot pics from AMS in this gallery: http://www.dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080613/ (http://www.dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080613/)

What I believed to be a "Dutch" bowline is in this image (http://www.dfred.net/misc/igkt/20080613/13.html), the full size version is a bit blurry but hopefully it won't lead to ambiguity. There are several normal "inside" bowlines in the other gallery images, among other things. Feel free to hotlink any of these pics to the forum. Though I highly recommend using the intermediate size ".slide..." images, as the full-size originals are far to big for inline inclusion.

Quote from: Dan_Lehman
[...regarding fancy Bavarian hat knots...]
And HERE, we must invalidate your passport into the Practical section! Grin Grin
Heh heh, yes, definitely not practical... I tried to sneak them in to avoid starting another thread. Mainly I included them because they were well-dated, first-hand examples of knotting -- but point taken. :)

Quote from: Dan_Lehman
[...regarding Czech "hoisting hitches"...]
Well, here is clear evidence of the natural way of casting multiple "overhand"/simple knots
to form a hitch. If the force were adequate to capsize these multiple knots, you'd find here
possibly THREE HHitches--nb: the Simple knots combine in the Granny orientation to each other.
In fact, such multiplicities often capsize into rather surprising loopknots, with the SPart staying
turned and the end jerking straight, at the eye/object-end of the structure. One can find various
results, and variously of the "Cow (Reef)" vs "Clove (Granny)" orientations.

Well as a practical matter, three half-hitches properly dressed up against the hook would be a much more suitable knot for this application. But if you want to go all abstract and topological on us, feel free to flout the charter of this forum!! :P

(But of course I'm joking, as these observation definitely bear directly on how practical knots are actually made and used in the wild.)

Quote from: DerekSmith
Naturally, I was particularly impressed with your use of the KC Hitch (from A Knot by Design) - an aesthetically fine rendition although I have to admit that today I use the Dog 'n Tails method of tying it - middle the cord and tie an OH loop then garter the two cords up the fixed object and finish with a 'shoelace' knot for easy release, then hang the load in the OH loop.

Thanks. And, yea, the finish isn't really part of the active portion of the knot. Probably best to consider it left up to tyer to decide, based on the particular case at hand...
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 13, 2008, 08:26:41 PM: Nice other photos, too!

I'd say that the presumed "Dutch Marine Bwl" is ambgiuous; that orientation
could result from the strong draw of the SPart moving the end to the apparent
"left-handed" side ("apparent"). And my conjecture is that tying methods are more
dependable, and such movement frequently observed enough, to lean in favor of that.

As for the "Preferential UV line damage?", at first (seeing the most distant image)
I thought that no, it was a type of polyDac line in which there are alternating yarns
of white PES & black PP (which there are!); the close-ups, however, dispell this
conclusion, and indeed it seems to show that the black pigmentation does much
better at UV resistance (very much better). I have some such stuff staying out in
daily sun for years w/o the sort of embrittling-&-splitting/fraying that seemed typical
of aged PP! Though by the look of the fibres, they're not so round as flattened, oval,
it seems. Could they even be of a CoEx material (PE/PP coextruded)? --seems that
PP is coming out in various forms, and I think more or less touched with some PE help.
("It's not your father's polypropylene.")((though I've some ca. 1960s stuff that shows
no sign of aging, really!?!!)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Pinrail on June 16, 2008, 09:02:00 PM: Well, while not a "practical" knot...I have found a couple "In the Wild." When I awoke the other morning, and was combing through my beard (which does become "wild" after a good night's rest) I discovered the source of some tangles. Upon closer examination, it appears I had a few simple overhand knots appear in a couple strands of hair. Remembering this thread, I couldn't help but laugh! If I can find my magnifying lens, I may take a closer look. One such knot may even be a figure eight, looking at the way the strand of hair enters and exits the knot, but it is soooo tiny, I can't really tell.

-Abe
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 16, 2008, 02:35:07 PM: Quote from: Dan_Lehman on February 25, 2008, 08:47:07 PM
My current keen interest is in the ropework of commercial fishers ("ComFishKnots"),
to be distinguished from the fiddly fine stuff of anglers, btw. Here I find Half-hitched
structures all over--Clove & Reverse Groundline hitches, seizings that are built up of
Half-hitches, other seizing hitches that employ Half-hitches.

Here is what I refer to above, courtesy of Nautile's keen camera'd eye:

http://charles.hamel.free.fr/knots-and-cordages/PICASA_Slideshow/Chalut_trawls_concarneau/target7.html

(click on image to be taken to thumbnail collection)

These "Reverse Groundline Hitch" binding knots (in paired white nylon hollowbraid)
are put on as shown right-to-left, and I think amount to 3 repetitions (per knot) of the
back'n'forth half-hitching of the RGH, before the lines run on to the next, nearby knot.
The number of repetitions (if any) will vary per tyer or use, and at times there will be
considerable wrapping between knots, rather than as here almost none. The knot
works well in the compressible cord, but less well in round stuff.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: skyout on October 03, 2008, 08:01:59 AM: My Grandfather was a sponge diver until he got the bends. He also was a grouper fisherman, going out for weeks at a time. He passed away in 1960 when I was in the 3rd grade so you can imagine the joy I felt when I found this old pulley with 2 eye splices on it in his attic about a year ago.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 03, 2008, 06:08:20 PM: Skyout, thanks for sharing that photo of the back-2-back eye splices.

Hmmm, I think that such a structure lost a lot of potential, either for
wear or strength: the small single-strand in-between-splicetucks
part is a weak point; had the rope been short-spliced into a grommet,
it would be on the order of double strength, and w/o further constriction
able to be rotated vis-a-vis wear points at attachment points (pulley & opposite).
Better, in this regard, would be pure grommet, or, if particular-sized eyes
were needed, then with the grommet seized into such constraints;
or perhaps the ends of the eye tuckings could overlap in some split
of tuckings--done initially just to set eye size, then reaching far to
be finished in overlap to the others. Or, ... spliced together!?

--dl*
====

ps: Lynn (no longer "newbie"), here's a good thread to report any findings from
your Rockport travels! ;)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on October 09, 2008, 07:04:38 PM: Quote from: skyout on October 03, 2008, 08:01:59 AM
My Grandfather was a sponge diver until he got the bends. He also was a grouper fisherman, going out for weeks at a time. He passed away in 1960 when I was in the 3rd grade so you can imagine the joy I felt when I found this old pulley with 2 eye splices on it in his attic about a year ago.

Skyout, what an absolute treasure. An imperfect tool, yet perfect for its job and saturated with hints to the way of life for your grandfather. I hope you are able to weave a set of stories around this treasure to help bring to life your grandfather to today's new generations. Maybe even show them how g-grandad might have made and used it.

Thanks for bringing it and the story to us.

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 09, 2008, 07:13:50 PM: Quote from: Dan_Lehman on October 03, 2008, 06:08:20 PM
ps: Lynn (no longer "newbie"), here's a good thread to report any findings from
your Rockport travels! ;)
And I know that the postponed-to weekend weather was simply autumnally SPLENDID!!
So, what have you to report, of knots in the wild?

:)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: skyout on October 09, 2008, 08:13:41 PM: Thanks Dan and Derek.
For all I know it could be great granddads as he had the first ferry across Tampa Bay. Before his ferry, everyone had to go by horses around the Bay. It's probably my grandfathers though. Maybe someone that knows more about metal pulleys could tell when it was made???
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: skyout on October 20, 2008, 04:03:10 AM: Here's a good one for your guys. It's from our vacation up in Mystic Seaport.
You can go here to see more pics.
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1153.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1153.0)

(http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/Himg407/scaled.php?server=407&filename=1005306smallgs1.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: skyout on October 20, 2008, 04:04:56 AM: And a closer shot (sorry, I don't know why I wanted a pic of my hand, LOL).

(http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/Himg407/scaled.php?server=407&filename=1005307smallbf8.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on October 20, 2008, 12:32:06 PM: When the Open Golf Championship was held at Hoylake last year the local Council did some work to improve the look of the the main thoroughfare in Hoylake itself. One of their ideas was to replace benches, cycle rack, etc with "rope" supported items - the "rope" in this case being metal (cast iron?) but properly finished with a cast whipping. Photos attached.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: roo on October 22, 2008, 05:32:59 PM: Quote from: Sweeney on October 20, 2008, 12:32:06 PM
When the Open Golf Championship was held at Hoylake last year the local Council did some work to improve the look of the the main thoroughfare in Hoylake itself. One of their ideas was to replace benches, cycle rack, etc with "rope" supported items - the "rope" in this case being metal (cast iron?) but properly finished with a cast whipping. Photos attached.

Me likey, Sweeney. I wonder if such an effect could be had by applying electrical resistance spot welding to heavy wire rope...ya know, to stick the individual wires together and make things nice and rigid. Or maybe epoxy resin impregnation would work. I haven't tried either, but it'd be interesting.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on October 28, 2008, 09:01:24 AM: I asked a couple of people I know if they thought that heavy wire rope (probably at least 30mm diameter) could be welded to be rigid. The impression I got (as neither would commit themselves) was that for the supported ring in the top picture this would possibly work - this is I think for tying up your dog whilst shopping, the cycle racks (not shown) are a curve like a letter S laid on its edge and this might also work for those but a seat taking 3 or 4 adults would probably not be rigid enough. The dog ring could be made completely from wire rope as absolute rigidity is not needed and there must be other non-load bearing street items which lend themselves to such a technique. Litter bin supports for example and small planters. Perhaps somebody skilled in wire rope could give it a try? Maybe a Guild logo with the ends forming 2 legs welded to a base plate for use as a freestanding outside sign when we have a meeting?
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on December 01, 2008, 09:48:56 PM: I really had an almost irresistible urge to post the link to the busty lady in bondage here - a real case of knots in the 'WILD' and an area of cord usage that is probably second only in usage to the tying of shoe laces.

Then I though better of it - I guess I am just getting OLD.

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 14, 2009, 07:35:25 PM: Here are some recent sightings from the east coast (Cape May area) of
commercial-fishing knotting & cordage & gear--fascinating & colorful stuff.

There are new regulations in the USA regarding the nature of groundlines
used for lobster & other fishing: they must be "sinking", non-bouyant
(and maybe not "neutrally bouyant", even)--which in practical terms
implies some considerable ingredient of polyester along with the olefin
(be it PP or PE or CoEx PP/PE). I was aware that such regulations
were in force in Maine, but not as far south as S. Jersey, and maybe
even farther. The concern is re the Right Whale, which in feeding
with open mouth can snag the arcs of floating groundlines an become
entangles (and apparently get a knotted broken end snagged in the
baleen!?). I found that the effect of such regulations--some/most? coming
with a state buy-back program for exchanged floating rope--was to cost
the particular fellow twice what the floating line cost (this maybe is w/o
regard to buy-back). His new rope lay heavy on the starboard side of
the boat against the wall, and in yet unopened spools (7?) beneath
a tarp--each of 2,000', 5/8" Everson Pro 4-strand laid rope.

First pic, lobster pots stacked and tied-on (floating snoods, yes) with
double sheet(becket) bends, ends tucked once; note some couple
oddball cases of bridle hitches beside the usual Clove & tuck or
Clove & HH & Tuck or Clove & 2-tucks. One case has the oddball
on one side, the usual on the other: I wonder why !? (And I can't
say what the oddball hitch is: is the end tucked through lay,
wrapped around cage-corner again, and tucked again?)

2nd pic, a close-up of a pot's corner showing impact damage
nearby with front end pushed in sharply; this bridle is well
secured with Clove+HH+tuck, effectively making an eye
splitting the load to both turns of the Clove Hitch.

3rd pic, a snood hitched to the groundline; this is what I call
a "Near Groundline Hitch", for the final tuck is not through
the initial turn of the GLH but through the lay of the object rope.
Note that in this case the tuck is through the center of the lay
(being 4-strand, i.e., splitting the strands evenly), but the
finishing tuck outside of the knot is splitting strands 3:1
(which I surmise might be a more secure nipping--and I think
that such tucking in 3-strand is more secure than the 2:2 of
4-strand of equal lay firmness).
This hitch is quite loose, and has either not yet been loaded
in practice, or has been loaded in the direction/orientation
indicated, snood pulling off leftwards. For if it was pulled
in the opposite direction, the hitch tends to draw up quite
well & snug, the loaded part pulling into later parts of the
hitch, and the initial turn clamping down atop the S.Part.

4th/final pic is of the vast lengths of rope stretched along
the boat. The captain referred to cost as "per pound" !
As noted above, spools here were of 2_000 feet in length.
With this heavier rope, the loading of it manually must be
felt as an unwanted difference to the CoEx line.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 14, 2009, 07:51:22 PM: Okay, for the lobster pots pic, "Medium-Medium" (JPEG/resolution) was just
too big (108kb), and High/Small is tiny; let's see how Low/Medium looks.

(Eh, noticeably less well defined, but appreciably larger.)
(2nd attch. using Fine-600x400 =>76kb)

(-;
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 05, 2009, 07:14:19 PM: Here are some of the Fisherman's Knots in a nearly 600' length of longline
for a conch-pots string I salvaged (with a lonnnng bout of untangling)
from the beach. (Oddly, the round slices of plastic drums used for the
pots were there, attached by 2-leg pot bridles (Overhand Eyeknot at center,
securing to pots through drilled holes with Overhand stoppers), but no
other rigging or hardware on the pots (i.e., none of the mesh for the
bottom and half of the top; none of the perimeter guard around the
opening).)

Note that these bends are tied both in the concordant and discordant
orientations (i.e., with same- & opposite-handed Overhand components);
the concordant ones seem to draw up more compactly. The knots also
appear to have been compacted by compression and not just tension,
though I'm not sure what would to that -- maybe just being pulled
through a guide pulley -- , as I think that unlike with lobster longline
this thinner cord is drawn up by the big spool atop the boat cabin
(in one case I'm familiar with) and not via a V-pinching pot hauler.

Which implies that the clipped-to-longling pot bridles must get unclipped
before the line reaches the spool. Yet some of the clip points on the
line showed evidence of wear beyond what would be expected for just
a one-time positioning!?

--dl*
====

ps: And now the "MOVED" thread won't show as latest for Practical Knots !
:)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: skyout on June 06, 2009, 01:20:52 AM: Good find and good job of cleaning the beaches.
Really nice picture, too, Dan. Looks almost like modern art with the dark background.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 15, 2009, 10:44:19 PM: On Saturday (14th), I moseyed down by a row-boat/kayak rental facility's lakeside
depot of boats and came to examine the short haul loops tied at the bow of the
row boats. I was astounded to find a variety of dubious knots: Sheet Bend,
Thief bend (!), Granny, and maybe something of the same but with different
orientation (e.g., the Thief can have the end tucks made more *roundly* to
resemble some kind of half-hitch bend); there was also the Square/Reef bend.
--in, oh, quarter-inch diamond-braided cord of some sort (some kind of core).

Admittedly, the one bend most here would think recommendable --viz., Sheet
Bend-- was the only really bad-looking knot in the batch, with the others less
badly set; but the Thiefs still gave me pause. Ultimately, I re-tied all but the
well-set Reef knots (which are about a neatly compact a knot as can be),
mostly with the Fisherman's knot (all but one in concordant orientation),
and one or two Dbl.Harness bends; oh, one SmitHunter's Bend, in the first
(and I was going to put in Rosendahl's Zeppelin bend but the idea was forgotten).
The Thiefs (etc.) benefited from somewhat *mushroomed* or stiffened (from
hot-knife cutting) ends, mini-stoppers in some effect. (It didn't occur to me
to put in a Ring Bend / Water knot, darn.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 21, 2009, 05:21:25 AM: Here are some more "in-the-wild" finds:
- a short line w/bowline at one end (with stopper, I think), and tugboat bowline other (!?)
- another frequently seen *variation* of the bowline found around trawlers (capsized, i.e.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: AKSeaplanePilot on July 27, 2009, 09:28:21 PM: My dog is obsessed with tennis balls. I've tried several pet toys, but she refuses them all in favor of the tennis ball. Until, I tied one in a knot, and now it is the object of her obsession. The photo shows the original "rope" toy, which she ignored completely. After several attempts to get her to fetch it, or play tug of war, I ended up tying a simple over hand knot in it and left it on the floor. She chews on it, tosses it, sleeps with it and generally keeps it near. I have no idea what the difference is, but she probably does!

Terry
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: skyout on July 28, 2009, 03:07:41 AM: Hi Terry and welcome to the forum!

Maybe she likes it because you put a special touch on it with your knot.

You could try one of these for her:
http://pineapple.myfunforum.org/about959.html (http://pineapple.myfunforum.org/about959.html)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: AKSeaplanePilot on July 28, 2009, 06:46:10 PM: Thanks for the welcome and the pointer to Dan's dog toys. I met Dan a couple of weeks ago at the Anchorage meeting and probably saw those exact toys as I rummaged through a couple of bins of excellent work. I intend to attend more meetings to learn from Dan and the other members. Perhaps I'll choose the dog toy as my first project!

Terry
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 28, 2009, 07:21:25 PM: Before this thread goes further to the dogs -- which to my mind
is a decorative topic, maybe leading to some wild knots, but certainly
not "knots in the wild" as intended here (no, here isn't where any photos go),
let me add some bona fide further findings from actual practice.

Here is a Clove hitch tied to some stout "rebar" (concrete reinforcement)
for a tent. I've seen also the Rolling hitch used, but also in the same
opposite-to-what-is-usually-shown orientation as this Clove, with the
round turn away from the loading angle, S.Part jamming in against
the HH'd end.

Oh, I should add this: illustrative of a simple knot used in the anchoring
of a haul line for a lightweight (20' extended?) ladder; but also -- and
this is MOST interesting -- of some peculiar UV degradation of the rope,
i.p., on but ONE strand of the rope (trust me: the appearance seen in
this limited section extends for all? of the rope (okay, I saw maybe just
8' or so and didn't check it all)). It's as though the one strand was made
of fibres devoid of UV inhibitors? Could that be purposeful: to have the
one-third of the rope show an ageing that thus warns that the entire
rope is taking on enough UV to compromise it overall? -- dubious, that.

;)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: AKSeaplanePilot on July 28, 2009, 11:48:16 PM: OK, no more dogs ... but, a friend sent me this airplane tie-down from EAA Airventure at Oshkosh WI this week. I can't for the life of me identify the knot, but the line goes from the rebar to a ring attached to the airplane wing. There should be one on the opposite wing and one at the tail.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 29, 2009, 04:34:30 AM: Aha, this is a new area -- airplane tie-downs. I can imagine that often such
things will be pretty well prepared with mechanical locks.
The rebar here looks as though it might be intended to make a sort of
cleat for quick securing to with a few wraps then a couple half-hitches
to finish, able to be released under tension!?

Good find! (And to your friend, yes, that's an affirmative "WOOF" , roger.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: jeatonx1 on July 31, 2009, 03:43:58 AM: I took this photo at a country club in MIchigan. There were about 30 of these holding down a temporary shelter.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 31, 2009, 04:27:31 AM: Yes, that's a typical find: about a half-inch PP laid rope, and a Slip-knot
Trucker's Hitch. I can't discern the completion, but it looks like a Half-hitch
and then some slip-bight is tucked (making the shadow) somehow.

Hitches on the other ends of such support lines can also provide some
knotting. (I think that somewhere I might have some notes on this.)

Thanks,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on August 03, 2009, 08:03:48 AM: I was talking yesterday to a man whose job is replacing gas mains pipes. Here plastic pipes are pushed inside old iron gas pipes (these are about 18 inches or so in diameter) and the short sections welded before being inserted. The knotting bit was that they use tape slings attached to the plastic pipe with a double or triple Prusik and then with an excavator pull the sling which then pushes the pipe into the old main (saves excavation) - up to about 4 metres at a time. The pull was said to exceed 2 tons as the length of pipe inserted increases but the Prusik holds well! The guardians of health and safety are apparantly stopping the practice as dangerous if the sling breaks.

Barry
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 28, 2009, 07:37:15 PM: [Post 800 ! :) ]

Seeing is believing ?!

Anyway, take a gander at these eye splices -- someone apparently didn't
like the frequency of tucks in the usual form, so tucked only every 3
strands or so !! (There were two such eyes, fore & aft.)
[Edit to add... :]
Conceivably, these comical splices will test stronger than the usual,
as the *intrusion* of each tucked strand is spread over a longer span
and so makes less *disturbance* to the lay!? (and the sided of the
eye bear only 50% of the load, after all) But, on the other hand,
these splices' exposed strands must be much more vulnerable to wear.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And, going for my quota of attachments, voila one artistic display of
two lines joined -- nylon solid braid with an eye formed by an Overhand
eye knot (coming out of symmetric dressing) with HH & tape tie-off,
tied to by CEO (CoExtruded Olefin) laid line w/Two HHs (and a rather
raveled end -- tape needed here !).

It's intersting to see that superfluous HH put in for the Overhand,
rather than merely taping the end w/o it (less bulk). A more usual
attachment of the other line would be a Sheet Bend with the end
tucked back through the lay (and then maybe taped to it, for neatness).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on August 29, 2009, 08:34:02 AM: Dan

It's always nice to see that out there are people who make my knotting skills look good! As a result I enjoy you're pics as much as the pics of beautiful work which members post and I also know is beyond me. Keep it up please.

Barry
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on August 29, 2009, 11:58:04 AM: And I am puzzled and begin to think that knotting is not so bad after all around here. People use decent splices (although the lines are mostly bought spliced then), and there are well made bowlines and two half hitches and clove hitches and such. I very seldom get the opportunity to see a tangle like the ones that Dan seems to find almost everywhere. I am led to believe that education on knots for sailors in fact has done something in my whereabouts. I too have taken pics of knots in the wild, but I fail to come across any real uglies.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 29, 2009, 08:00:10 PM: Quote
... that Dan seems to find everywhere ...

One should beware that there might be a "squeaky wheel" syndrome:
that only the bad ones are captured for presentation. But, no, in the
cleat hitches I was pretty fair -- there was just that main one, maybe
another, fairly approximating *correctness*.

But re the "everywhere", it was interesting (and LIMITED scope, so far):
where some expensive yachts were moored, lines were "properly" cleated;
yet in some other marinas, with small craft, I found "spaghetti" securings.
Now, for the former, it could be that staff at the site were responsible
for some things (so, if they were savvy then all who were there got the
proper cleating?).

I'd hoped to get a look at a marina en route out of The Wildwoods but it
was tooooo good for the common man -- a gated community of boats!
There might yet be hope, and further looking. Then, again, the heavy
mooring lines of the commercial-fishing trawlers do have a most interesting
variety of often capsized knots (bowlines, Eskimo bowlines, anti-bowlines),
such that I wonder if capsizing is desired -- still doubt it, but ... .
Indeed, come to think of it, at one dock there were many of those
"left-handed" ("Cowboy" ...) bowlines, and I think that their purpose
is expressly to better resist capsizing -- my surmise (and of boats that
might have a common owner, or information-exchanging captains/crew).

Quote
... there are well made bowlines ...

And, tell me, what is the geometry of these bowlines? Joop make some remark
echoing the claim that the common bowlines having the end inside of the
eye can lead to it being pushed out of the knot!? I find this incredible,
and must remark that in about all cases of having-been-loaded bowlines
that I've seen, the end is pulled up and away from the eye by the draw
of the S.Part -- it remains nowhere near the eye to be pushed!

Attached first is the Common Bowline showing an extreme draw of
its end away from the eye; then comes the "Left-handed" bowline
with visible effect of the S.Part draw on the outside-positioned eye
such that it makes a broad "V"; this knot is resistant to capsizing.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on August 29, 2009, 08:43:06 PM: The cowboy bowline is seldom seen here, it is frowned at as "not correct". Bowlines almost invariably are tied with the end inside, and I cannot see any way that the end might be pushed out of the knot. Never heard of here.

To avoid chafe, there is often an extra turn before the bowline is formed, and for larger craft the bowline is mostly toggled to a ring. Also spliced eyes are mostly toggled. I'll be back with some pictures.

Marinas are almost always gated here, but I have access to a few.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 30, 2009, 08:06:06 PM: Quote from: Inkanyezi on August 29, 2009, 08:43:06 PM
The cowboy bowline is seldom seen here, it is frowned at as "not correct".

And so I must wonder at the cordage, the circumstances, and the frequency
of capsized bowlines, which the "not correct" version well resists!?
That cannot be a matter up to human opinion -- it is one of materials & structure
under natural forces. And, again, I have found (and shown here) capsized bowlines
to the extent that I wonder almost whether they're deliberately done (tied loose in
hopes of upsetting) -- it would be more tricky to tie such a Pile-Hitch noose
directly. And I envision one mechanism for so forming ...

Quote
To avoid chafe, there is often an extra turn before the bowline is formed,

By which I take you mean a turn on the pile.** Hmmm, if the boat's movement
in the water is such as to produce slightly different angles of tension upon the
line, conceivably the legs of the bowline can be loaded in isolation, or initially
so -- that turn on the frictive pile serving to require some good force to work
around into the initially slackened eye leg. And in that moment, of the load
is on the end-side eye leg, with the common bowline it can help effect the
capsizing.
**[Well, reflecting, you likely mean turn on a ring, for which this paragraph
doesn't have much traction.]

Quote
toggled to a ring. Also spliced eyes are mostly toggled. I'll be back with some pictures.

Great! This forum is getting enriched by the hour, from all over!

:)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: skyout on September 03, 2009, 12:28:31 AM: I found this pic on the 1st page when doing an AOL image search for "fancy knots".
I didn't see any description for it but thought of this thread when I saw it because it looks interesting and old.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/156/434479711_f38c14c271.jpg?v=0)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: SS369 on September 03, 2009, 03:11:04 AM: Knots in the wilds of my backyard.

Having to draw together some framing lumber that was too long for any clamps I have (16ft+) I used a figure 9 loop and threaded the rope (soft-laid nylon and well used) through it after going around the framing member, then on to the opposite member and around. Then threading through the loop of a butterfly tied part way back again, I gained enough clamping power enough to draw the members tight. Finalized with a half hitch and then a slipped overhand thus allowing freedom to nail these ornery boards
Choice for these knots was based on past experience of ease to untie after loading.

Scott
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on September 07, 2009, 09:16:30 AM: I promised to be back with pictures, and here are the first four. These are typical for mooring medium size vessels, retired fishing boats mostly. The bowline is common, as well as two half hitches, and I see a fisherman's now and then. Often the rope displays severe chafe, these boats are moored for extended time, some for years on end. All are owned by people that use them as a home or like a summer house that can take them out to the archipelago. Mooring practise seems very reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 07, 2009, 07:59:24 PM: Ah, good to see that sometimes-published knotted structure actually in use.

BUT, it seems to me that it would be surer and more convenient/considerate
of other mooring lines to same ring to use a short rope vice board/cylinder
to bind the false Girth Hitch. One would use this rope to bind together
(with simple wraps, maybe some HH-locking 2 B Sure) the two sided of
the part of the eye that go out around the eye legs.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on September 25, 2009, 03:33:55 PM: Hi All,

These knots are not strictly 'In the Wild' in these photo's, (they are on my lounge carpet) but they do accompany me to the wildness whenever I go diving. I am inordinately proud of them, especially the mini TH's!

See them here http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/peterwhennessey/MyHandmadeBungeeCordFinStrapsStringRopeKnots#

Enjoy,

Peter H
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 11, 2009, 04:47:41 AM: It is with great regret & dismay that I am unable to be in New Bedford,
partly because that is yet an active commercial-fishing, maritime port,
and there should be much to see & document along the wharfs.

I do hope that there are some fellow IGKTers there with cameras and
curiosity to take up some of this recording, and who can soon share
those knots in the wild on this forum.

Cheers,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on October 11, 2009, 07:29:00 AM: Quote from: Dan_Lehman on October 11, 2009, 04:47:41 AM
It is with great regret & dismay that I am unable to be in New Bedford,
partly because that is yet an active commercial-fishing, maritime port,
and there should be much to see & document along the wharfs.

I do hope that there are some fellow IGKTers there with cameras and
curiosity to take up some of this recording, and who can soon share
those knots in the wild on this forum.

Cheers,
--dl*
====
I hope nothing too serious is keeping you from your desired venue Dan.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: SS369 on October 17, 2009, 06:45:43 PM: During the trip to the New Bedford IGKT meeting we took a side jaunt to New England. We stayed on the coast in a small town north of Portsmouth (Nice town!). Rye is quaint and the beaches are rugged. As I jogged the morning surf I came to a mass of rocks and seaweed and I found this water knot entangled. As it was stretched tight and I could only briefly rotate it before the surf came rushing back in, I snapped these two and bolted.
Looks like a waterknot to me.

SS
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 18, 2009, 05:13:57 AM: Excellent, SS!
And did your keen eye seek out other such knotting around
New Bedford's many active commercial-fishing docks? That
was my goal (and hope for others to engage as well), but I
just couldn't spare the time.

As it was, I did manage to visit the Annapolis Sailboat Show
-- though, with my knack of timing, only after both the
NERopes fellow I'm to arrange some testing with (courtesy of
Brion Toss) had departed, and after Brion, too (who'd lately
announced his attendance, with a series of talks through
SUNday, not my Monday visit), had gone (I surmise).

Well, I did gander at the Pride of Baltimore, which some IGKT
have lent a hand working on (I think -- the local sub-branch
has a contact hosting USS Constellation work who has involved
us in Pride-ful work, or offered).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: SS369 on October 18, 2009, 02:34:53 PM: My keen eyes sought the excellent displays at the meeting, the sights in the whaling museum, the kind faces of friends who till that meeting had been letters and words only and then the backs of their lids. The next day I put in the 13+ hours to get us home.
I was on a short schedule and never got close enough to any other "In the Wild" knotting to take worthwhile pictures.
Perhaps next time Dan, perhaps a picture of you as well. ;)

SS
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: dfred on October 20, 2009, 04:11:51 AM: Quote from: Dan_Lehman on October 11, 2009, 04:47:41 AM
It is with great regret & dismay that I am unable to be in New Bedford,
partly because that is yet an active commercial-fishing, maritime port,
and there should be much to see & document along the wharfs.

I do hope that there are some fellow IGKTers there with cameras and
curiosity to take up some of this recording, and who can soon share
those knots in the wild on this forum.

Hi Dan, don't dismay! I've been catching up on work things and just starting to go through all the images I took in NB.

A subset of the Guild group toured Reidar's Manufacturing (http://www.reidarsmfg.com/), a net maker and repair facility in Fairhaven across the harbor from New Bedford. I spoke at moderate length to one of the younger guys at Reidar's, Hans, about utility knots still used in fishing. In addition to the well-known ones, he showed me one he called the "Stevedore knot", which really would be more accurately called a "Stevedore hitch". It's probably most reasonably considered a variant of a timber hitch but with the structure and tying method more like a packers/butcher's knot. It substitutes a Stevedore knot (or as he tied it a Stevedore + a turn) in place of the figure-eight in a packer's knot. Instead of a binding arrangement, the hitch is allowed to tighten noose-like around the hitched object. In many ways it behaves like a timber hitch due to the number of self-wraps the working end makes around itself after passing around the standing part, but with the end passing back out of the knot where the standing part also exits. (Hopefully all that makes sense) As he demonstrated it, it was very quick to tie (I shot a short video) and it seemed both reasonably secure and easy to release. I failed to get a sense from him whether this was in wide use. I also got a number of shots of more involved knots/wrappings/etc. used in the construction of various nets.

On Sunday, after a very extensive harbor tour arranged by Bob Dollar, covering both the New Bedford and Fairhaven waterfronts, I walked around one of the NB wharfs (Fisherman's Wharf Pier #3, according to Google map) and I took a fair number pictures and even spoke to a couple fisherman. Although nothing ground-breaking was learned here, a strange sense of history seemed to settle upon me; being a non-fisherman down on the New Bedford waterfront quizzing folks who make their living with ropes, nets, splices, and knots. This was heightened later by a very memorable visit the Ashley farm that same afternoon.

Once I sort through all the images I took I'll be posting some here and possibly in one or two other threads.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Andy on January 24, 2010, 08:07:35 AM: Happy new year everyone!

Greetings from Nelson, NZ.

A picture from a knot on a chopper that landed near us:

(http://asiteaboutnothing.net/knots/i_forum_chopper.jpg)

Sadly, the only picture, with no more detail. But it was fun to look at, I had not imagined to put knots together with aviation.

Warmest wishes,

Andy
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on January 24, 2010, 02:52:36 PM: Hi Andy,

Welcome back, I hope you had (are having) a great time.

Re the knot - what on earth is it?

I think I saw a shape something like that once on a rescue tutorial to allow the controlled release of a load. Would that have been the case with this knot?

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: sharky on January 24, 2010, 04:11:20 PM: Cool thread...as owner and operator of a commercial fishing operation in Japan, I should be able to get some unique pics for this topic. Just came in today, but I will try to get some pics at the port during this week. I think you will find that commercial fishermen in Asia tie knots much the same as commercial fishermen in other parts of the world.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Andy on January 24, 2010, 11:41:49 PM: Hi Derek,

Thanks for your friendly greeting!

Quote
Re the knot - what on earth is it?
I think I saw a shape something like that once on a rescue tutorial to allow the controlled release of a load. Would that have been the case with this knot?

The pilot was busy showing kids around the helicopter, so I didn't have a chance to ask. The part of the rope at the top right is attached to one of the rotor blades. I assumed that was to keep the blades from moving in the wind. On the left, you can see a weight pulling on one end of the rope, perhaps to prevent the knot from working itself loose. As for the knot itself, I don't have the encyclopedic knowledge of many members on the forum. You probably would have been able to identify it. You can see many turns as in a stevedore, but around the metal bar. That was a couple months ago, thought I'd taken close-ups, but cannot find them. Will have to wait for the next chopper!

Wishing you a wonderful week,

Warmest regards,

Andy
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on January 25, 2010, 01:20:14 AM: Hi Andy,

Thanks for this interesting shot. Looks like a reverse multiple rolling hitch with a final crossback and half hitch in a bight to me.

The red weight bag serves as a throwing aid to capture the rotor blade and a " Take Me Off Before You Fly" tag.
All aircraft have several of these that the careful pilot removes before take off. S/he knows how many the bird has and if s/he can't count that number in hand s/he knows there's one still attached somewhere that could bring a premature end to the flight profile.

Having caught the blade and clipped on the rope end, haul the blade round to the tail and pass the doubled rope under the tail skid in a sunwise direction forming a very obtuse round turn. Form several (looks like between 8 & 12) round turns serving back over the the original RT with the doubled rope. Upon reaching the incoming line pass once around the skid inboard of the line and bring back outboard of the serving forming a HH. The remaining bight falls at the left of the knot as viewed and the TMOBYF tag falls to the right.

That's what it looks like to me at least. What do you think?

Regards, Peter H
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on January 25, 2010, 12:23:28 PM: I see your logic Peter, but I would question that first obtuse turn.

The cord seems to be about half the diameter of the tail skid, so we should see some witness of that long turn beneath the serving, yet I cannot see any - it seems to conform nicely to the shape of the skid bar.

There seems to be some sort of white boss on the skid where the aerial? is attached. Perhaps the doubled cord starts its multi wraps there and wraps out towards the end, then after 8 wraps, is brought back on the away side of the skid, passes around the blade line, back along the near side to the end of the wraps and HH to finish. There is a slight indication that the red tagged end hangs from the far side of the skid which it would do if it were not served into place.

The only question I would have is -'why make such a complex hitch?'

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on January 25, 2010, 01:32:18 PM: Derek,

I think you've nailed it. I did wonder if the rope returned as you suggest, and I guess my description was influenced by how I would tie this particular configuration. I didn't like the idea of such a loose return and would prefer to see it served down. On the other hand I would have tied a clove hitch and HH in the bight then coiled the rest and clove hitched that to the skid.

I suspect the only reason for this extended knot is to use up the spare rope. These catching ropes have to be quite long as the rotor tends to sit forward and the rear blade is pretty high off the deck. They tie them down to stop rocking and milling in the wind which can damage the mechanism or adjacent machines and the blade tip.

Regards, Peter H
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 26, 2010, 01:12:48 AM: If I read Derek correctly, I concur in his surmise but for the
exaggerated count of wraps -- realize that it is twin strands
making the rounds, here: they build material double-fast!
.:. So, the line is doubled, brought beneath and around the
object and wrapped away from the direction of load, until
in a few wraps it returns to pass back up around the object
and past the loaded part to reach to the end of the wraps
for, I think, a double-turn finish. (And thanks for the attempt
to enhance the photo by enlargement -- eh, not quite sufficient.)

"... so complex ..." : I don't find it complex, and not all that
drawn out; it consumes material, effects the making-fast,
and it simply done, simply undone. It works. (Like some of
the cod-end knots, much is done to consume the length.)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on January 26, 2010, 06:56:50 AM: You guys are goood! :)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on January 26, 2010, 07:36:11 AM: I have made this fixing the way we have surmise. I estimate from the photo that there are ca 6 wraps of the doubled cord before going back to the load line and then back again to the final wrap/simple hitch.

With a loading at roughly 30degreed to the 'skid' the fixing was stable against shock load due to the large number of turns bleeding the load frictionally into the skid.

I think you have it though Dan in your comment on simplicity of removal. The loading does not reach the simple hitch and the fixing is as easy to remove as it is to put on. I would guess that even in cold and bad weather, it would still be just as easy to remove - even with gloves or cold hands.

Whoever designed it was good
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Andy on January 26, 2010, 09:21:15 AM: Greetings you all,

You guys are AMAZING.
Sorry for not providing a better picture at the start, I'd forgotten about the zoom function. Here are close-ups of some details.

(http://asiteaboutnothing.net/knots/i_forum_chopper2.jpg) (http://asiteaboutnothing.net/knots/i_forum_chopper5.jpg)

(http://asiteaboutnothing.net/knots/i_forum_chopper4.jpg) (http://asiteaboutnothing.net/knots/i_forum_chopper3.jpg)

Wishing you's a magnificent day!
Smiles,

Andy

p.s. Did I mention that you all are amazing?
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on January 26, 2010, 02:53:35 PM: Nice find Andy,

It all seems to fit the surmises. That rope seems well used - worn flat and fluffy.

The only strange aspect is that odd looking hook attaching to the blade tip. Everything seems so purpose made (even the hitch), so why the oddball hook? It is almost as if the hook were designed to be used for flat strapping ?

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: sharky on January 26, 2010, 03:32:40 PM: Just a guess, but I would say that the hook on the blade tip is a multipurpose tool. As you can see, the eye splice is large enough for the hook to be removed if they need to use it for something else. Aircraft as well as ships try to maximize on the gear they have to carry.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on January 26, 2010, 04:26:39 PM: Quote from: sharky on January 26, 2010, 03:32:40 PM
Just a guess, but I would say that the hook on the blade tip is a multipurpose tool. As you can see, the eye splice is large enough for the hook to be removed if they need to use it for something else. Aircraft as well as ships try to maximize on the gear they have to carry.

Yes, it has a convenient grab handle for whatever other tooling purposes it might have.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 27, 2010, 04:35:20 AM: WEll, the enlarged photo shows the surmises to be wrong :
the bight legs go opposite directions around the skid!

I think that the red-tagged hanging end clearly passes up BEFORE
the skid, over its top, then out of sight behind (maybe to u-turn,
but clear enough IN FRONT at first contact and not paired with
the other leg in passing around under & behind). That busts
the conjecture about the tying, and poses questions about how
and how efficiently this actual structure is made!? => Square-1

And at least I was wrong about the finish entailing a round turn:
it is a simple turn/half-hitch. I thus count 8 twin wraps working
back from this point, and at the right end where they reach the
two legs, one must wonder how they go to flow into their respective
*ends*.

FURTHERmore: I find it odd (and had so thought previously, silently)
that the wrapping of a bight-end (long) did not produce more torsion
-- rather, this bight end hangs at not such short length with only the
slightest suggestion of torsion; there are but a few crossings otherwise.
And this seems to be hard-laid rope, too.

I count back from the left end wraps (ignoring the bight's HH finish)
SIX turns around the skid, and the sixth (rotating frontwards->upwards->over...)
seems to there split over/under (resp.) the red-tagged end!?
And re the red-tagged end's passing UNDER just one of the wrapped
strand-pair, I see on the left/top side of this crossing apparently a
quite torqued open (against lay) pair of rope-strands,
as though this end had been brought under the other part with
much pressure upon it!? -- curiouser & curiouser!!

Also, look at the red-tagged end immediately below the tail-bight
it passes behind: there seems to be a slight bulge of material there
that I can't make be part of the bight or the end, nor could it do
much pressing on the end for that would deflect the end's line
of passage more this is done -- which is very slight at most!?

So, I'm lost on this.
???

I will continue to assume that whatever tying it is, it is done easily.
But I can't conceive of such a tying to match what I see here.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: sharky on January 27, 2010, 08:53:09 AM: I would say that it is designed to provide enough friction to secure the rotor, but can be untied quickly if required. Might also be just something invented just for show...
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on January 27, 2010, 12:54:20 PM: Hi Dan,

I think that there is a 'tell' that argues that the red tagged cord hangs down from the far side of the skid, not the near side.

Look at the shadows, they indicate that the sun is slightly nearside of overhead.

Now look at the rope with the red tag. Working up from the tag, there is length hanging in sunlight, then a short shadow caused by the double strand of the bight going to the final turn and hitch. Then there is a short band of sunlight corresponding to the gap between the bight and the wrapped skid, then finally there is a long shadow caused by the wrapped skid.

If you look at the relative lengths of the shadows, the bottom shadow is caused by two diameters of cord. The top shadow is about three times longer, so is roughly six diameters equivalent, which is about the width of the wrapped skid.

I agree, there is question about the start of the wraps. I think the wrap starts with the loaded line nearest the boss? with the red tag line skid endwards of it. Then after the wraps are started, the red tag end is thrown over to the back of the skid - I have marked the elevated cord which I think is this tag line going over to the far side of the skid prior to being wrapped by the returned lines.

Does this hold water for you ?

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on January 27, 2010, 02:59:07 PM: Dan, Derek,

I see it much as Derek describes, the tag line coming down the back of the skid with it's part thrown over the first wrap of the rotor line. This throwover is slightly birdcaged by the returning end bight.

However I think the very first round turn may have been made with a single line and may be underhand in that it comes round inboard of the rotor line although it's difficult to be sure about that. Then the tagline joins it to make the doubled round turns.

Counterwinding them as you have suggested Dan seems just too complex and would surely result in much torsion and tanglement in the end bight?

What think you?

Peter H
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on January 27, 2010, 04:54:49 PM: I'm lost on this one too, so far, and have been unsuccessful in finding any other photos on the web that might shed some light. Gonna try Flickr. I still think the red tagged line drops on the near side.
Derek, the part you've marked blue does not align vertically with the tagged line. What is skewing it sideways?

alpineer
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on January 27, 2010, 08:48:28 PM: Hi All,

Here is a photo of my replica Heli tail skid hitch tied on a pickaxe handle in 10mm 3 strand nylon line.

I believe it has all the features seen and discussed so far. Sorry about the slight distortion , the pics have been resized without preserving the aspect ratio.

More photos at http://picasaweb.google.com/peterwhennessey/HeliSkidBinding#

Discuss! ( The knot please, not the state of my garage!)

PwH
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on January 28, 2010, 04:35:46 AM: Yes, Thank You PwH. You were holding out on us! It should be obvious to everyone now how it is tied. I was looking for evidence of something running over the unseen side of the wraps in Andy's original photo, but couldn't see it till after the fact. Or rather I just simply didn't understand what it was I was looking at. Thanks to Andy for posting this one and congrats to Derek for getting it.

Alpineer

And now we can discuss the state of your garage, PwH ;D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 28, 2010, 07:29:55 AM: I remain in favor of there being a tying that is easy, and didn't suggest
any complex wrapping,
but only cannot see what has been conjectured as the simple knot!

To Derek's "tell", that purple-highlighted strand is the RIGHTside partner
of the wrapping pair, if you work back from the left side (where the
leftmost rope pair is of the finishing Half-hitch, of course), and note
how the unhighlighted partner runs UNDER a strand that the purple
one rides OVER -- very strange. Maybe PwH is on to something about
there being a single-wrap beginning and then the twin wrapping,
but that still doesn't account for what I've just described. And there
is that <whatever> immediately beneath the reaching strands of the
end bight which is out of alignment SLIGHTLY from the red-tagged
line -- just a little more bulge than that rope could make, there.
Could it be hardware on the skid, the boss?

So, I don't think we see it clearly -- just as Ashley didn't see that
Fig.8 stopper and so conceived his "Oysterman's" novelty (which
would surprise those very oystermen!). The sun seems to me to
be pretty straight overhead, and some light is reflected off of the
white-ish rope itself, or caught in rope fibers "over the horizon."

As for the re-creation, c'mon, we can recreate whatever we want,
and that's no proof.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on January 28, 2010, 11:55:29 PM: Quote:- "As for the re-creation, c'mon, we can recreate whatever we want,
and that's no proof." DL

Well Dan , you really are an old grouch ! ;) That knot is about as close as you will see to the original and all you can do is "dis" it!

I know it's not proof but it is pretty good evidence which should be acceptable as scientific analysis in any Court of Law- but apparently not the Court of Lehman !

So here's the challenge- you tie and publish a knot that looks more like the original than that one and I'll say I'm wrong and give you the credit. Till then I stick to my guns and say that's the definitive Heli Tail Skid Hitch ;D

Go for it Dan - you know you want to!

Cheers,

Peter w H
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Andy on January 29, 2010, 03:13:57 AM: Hi Peter,

You have a truly gorgeous garage. Thank you for sharing these pictures :)

Oh yes, and I was thrilled and impressed to see that "heli skid binding" knot (nice name!) without the chopper.
Loved these "Dark Side of the Knot" pictures. They might even give me the confidence to try the knot now.

Wishing everyone a beautiful weekend,

Andy
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on January 29, 2010, 09:57:07 AM: I believe this is the tail skid of an American Bell H-1, more affectionately known as the Huey. There is a change in the diameter of the skid in the area under the first wrappings. This might explain some of the confusion here. Compare the differences in skid girth beyond both ends of the knot.
I see one difference between Andy's original photo and Peter's handiwork. In Andy's the bight end swings back toward the front of the skid and crosses the red tagged line on it's near side, while Peter has the bight end crossing on the tagged line's far side.

Anyway, here's how I see the tying of the knot:
Take the red tagged end over the top of the tail skid and let it hang off the far side. Take the line coming from the rotor to where the red tagged line crosses the tail skid and begin wrapping the slack lines in tandem around the skid in a clockwise direction toward the skid's end. After several wraps swing the 'bight lines' back toward the first wrap, crossing the red tagged line on it's inside, then up over the skid and around the rotor line, then head straight back to the end of the wraps and finish with a Half-Hitch.

Fotos on Flickr show it's common to use a strap instead and simply wrap it singly toward the end of the tail skid where the weighted red tag hangs. No 'Turn-backs' or Half-Hitches to deal with.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 30, 2010, 07:49:03 AM: Quote from: PwH on January 28, 2010, 11:55:29 PM
That knot is about as close as you will see to the original and all you can do is "dis" it!

I know it's not proof but it is pretty good evidence which should be acceptable
as scientific analysis in any Court of Law- but apparently not the Court of Lehman !

There is a good reason that science isn't conducted in courts of law
-- who gave rise to the term "junk science" !

Firstly, that rope in your photo looks MIGHTY strange: the horizontally running
end bight looks rather normal, slightly hard-laid; but the wraps around the wood
appear sooooo soft-laid as to be 2-strand rope (and it's hard to discern parts)!!??
How did you manage that -- or did you employ two different ropes in
conjuring your scientific evidence?

The key area of confusion for me is that at & around rightwards of the part
that Derek highlighted in purple -- that strand which works back to being
the right-side twin of the wrapped bight, but which goes OVER a part while
its twin goes UNDER the same part (or that's what seems to occur). And
what of that passed-over part, where does it go down to? And what
are the parts to the right -- the actual photo has more spread between the
loaded line and the purpled strand than you have in your model, and it's
this area I can't find a way to explain.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on January 30, 2010, 07:14:54 PM: Hi All,

Thanks for the compliments guys, my garage is enjoying its 15 minutes of fame, and even thinks it might smarten itself up a bit to please its adoring public!

Q1: For one view on where the term 'Junk Science' originated see this Wiki article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_science I know you can't trust wiki without corroboration, but though it isn't proof, it could be evidence.

Q2: I can assure you Dan that my recreation is tied in one single length of 3 strand nylon line, soft laid, about 10mm dia. approx 9m long. (Hence the comment about the 'whole nine yards'). I object strongly M'Lud to the inference that my model is a falsity , made up to appear like the original with no reality of substance. Even the crossover in the final move of the bight is unintentional, it just falls into place neatly following the stresses in the line as shown in the original. I can see where you got the impression that there are two different lines here- it's due to the distortion I mentioned in the posting. I would ask Dan whether you have tied, or even attempted to tie this configuration, or are you pontificating from some ivory tower somewhere? Where I come from it's fighting talk Dan , to call a man a liar- care to step outside? >:(

Q3: Alpineer ( & Dan) - I agree with you Alp that it's probably a Huey. Can you post some links to the photos you found on Flickr please? Theres about 2500 pics of Hueys on there and not many show the tail in detail.
However, I don't believe the tag line goes over the returning bight- it does appear as if it may, but that adds complication without advantage. Using Occams Razor would suggest the simplest viable solution is likely to be true. As I said before I believe its been birdcaged by the pressure of the returning bight, and the angle of shot is decieving as to its true path.

Q4: The throwover RT goes down the back of the skid to the tag, the under part is the first or second RT of the binding.

Q5: The extra spead in the rightmost turns probably come from a combination of the change of diameter of the skid pointed out by Alpineer and the initial HH as suggested by me.

Cheers, Peter H

P.S. You can sit down Dan, I ain't really gonna take you outside for a man to man, though I will if you insist. Chosen weapons are nine yards of line and a helicopter . ;)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on January 31, 2010, 05:10:20 AM: Quote from: PwH on January 30, 2010, 07:14:54 PM
Q2: I can assure you Dan that my recreation is tied in one single length of 3 strand nylon line, soft laid, about 10mm dia. approx 9m long. (Hence the comment about the 'whole nine yards'). I object strongly M'Lud to the inference that my model is a falsity ,

Then, you should engage in some self-flatulation,
er, flagellation, for having inferred erroneously!
I did not mean to imply anything of the sort; but only
pointed to the peculiarity of the cordage. Yes, I can
see, now, some bit of image distortion is at work
(trying to make the garage look taller?) ::)

Quote
I would ask Dan whether you have tied, or even attempted to tie this configuration, or are you pontificating from some ivory tower somewhere?

My tower is more cushy than precious ivory. I could mentally tie
what Derek & I & ... at first thought it was, so didn't need to find
a free play rope (so many, many, literally "tied up" w/knots). I have
not seen clear to what I'd try to tie, otherwise. (But I gave it a try
anyway.)

Quote
However, I don't believe the tag line goes over the returning bight- it does appear as if it may, but that adds complication without advantage. Using Occams Razor would suggest the simplest viable solution is likely to be true. As I said before I believe its been birdcaged by the pressure of the returning bight, and the angle of shot is decieving as to its true path.

Let's be precise in reference to Derek's purple-enhanced image.
I can see SOMEthing just left of the top of this purple part; I had
thought it the opened-lay of the line the PurPart crosses over,
but I could see it as two strands of the upper of the reaching-to=
return bight (which as you say entraps the tagged end).

But, then, what of what would've been its downward continuation,
coming out from under the PurPart ? (Again, the twin bight leg
for the PurPart is on its left, so not this.) Are you saying that that is
the extra turn of the loaded end?

I think that you've got the initial turn wrong: the continued wrap of
the loaded end --extra turn, if indeed it's there ...-- goes left of
that part, and you show it (I see it) as being right of the loaded end,
as if indeed one were making a Half-Hitch (though with a near right
angle). Beyond that, I can now see a possible match to the image,
BUT for yet wondering at the apparent slight "bulge" just BELOW the
returning bight end -- which I mused might be part of the boss!?
And I can see that subsequent to tying off the bight-end, the tag
end might've been given a tug to help set the hitch.

Although this suggested structure is a bit more awkward to tie than
merely wrapping with the bight from the start.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on January 31, 2010, 07:45:53 AM: Quote from: PwH on January 30, 2010, 07:14:54 PM
I agree with you Alp that it's probably a Huey. Can you post some links to the photos you found on Flickr please? Theres about 2500 pics of Hueys on there and not many show the tail in detail.

http://www.hueybravo.net/images/Airfoirce/Huey2no2tailtofront.jpg (http://www.hueybravo.net/images/Airfoirce/Huey2no2tailtofront.jpg)

Best I could do Peter. Not much to choose from.
alpineer
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on February 02, 2010, 12:32:58 AM: Thanks Alpineer ,
thats a much better shot than the one I found. It confirms Andys bird as a Huey , but I think it may have a slightly different skid. Oh the arguments we could have about this tie off!!

Dan- back to reasoned argument , much more like it :) I'm not entirely sure about my suggested start with a half hitch- it could be there and would give a good hold while setting up the wraps, but maybe not. The little bump on the bottom of the right side could be the crossing of a HH, but may be something else not yet clear. I am sure the PurPart goes over the back down to the tag, but whether it's to the left or the right of the loaded part---- . If I had to recreate this Hitch this for some reason or other I would tie it as per the model, with or without the HH start, and who (apart from the educated stringman) could argue?

To start off on another line, (!) here are some pics of wild knotting at Seahouses harbour in Northumberland. The only time I've seen a Cut Splice outside a knotboard or a book. The double round turn and three half hitches seems popular here for some reason, maybe because it's so exposed to the North Sea wind and waves.
Click this link for the pics:- http://picasaweb.google.com/peterwhennessey/RopeAndKnotsAtSeahousesStringRopeKnots#

Cheers All, Peter H
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: alpineer on February 02, 2010, 07:49:22 AM: One more photo. Note that the blade hook was originally an integral part of the belt which secures the tip here. So, not a handle as was conjectured, but to accept the belt.
Btw, the bird in Andy's photo is NZ3807.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on February 02, 2010, 11:09:36 AM: Great pics! The difference between having ABOK on your knee in a nice warm room and the reality of tying a knot when that is not your primary purpose especially when it's snowing, blowing a gale and freezing and your trying to put a cheap tarpaulin on the leaking shed roof as I was last Friday. Wet 6mm polypropylene rope is not easy at the best of times but it does remind me that a basic knowledge of simple knots is really what you need. I am not posting pics - wouldn't want to upset anybody with just how badly I can do a job when I'm wet, frozen and in a hurry! The tarp is still there though.

Barry
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 05, 2010, 10:12:37 PM: Quote from: PwH on February 02, 2010, 12:32:58 AM
To start off on another line, (!) here are some pics of wild knotting at Seahouses harbour in Northumberland. The only time I've seen a Cut Splice outside a knotboard or a book. The double round turn and three half hitches seems popular here for some reason, maybe because it's so exposed to the North Sea wind and waves.
Click this link for the pics:- http://picasaweb.google.com/peterwhennessey/RopeAndKnotsAtSeahousesStringRopeKnots#

Cheers All, Peter H

Ahhhhh, now this is more like it! Note the Bowline w/end on outside,
what shape it's taken with the loading -- shown in 3 photos.

As usual, there are lots of half-hitches (Cloves & Cloves+1) here.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: PwH on February 06, 2010, 01:36:06 PM: Top marks for seeing that from the photo's. (See http://picasaweb.google.com/peterwhennessey/RopeAndKnotsAtSeahousesStringRopeKnots#5396626253074206658 ). Took me a few minutes of concentrated study on the dockside to decide that was actually a bowline. Would have been much easier if I could have handled it and turned it over, but I feel it's impolite to interfere with another mans lines without good reason(i.e. tieing up alongside or to the same fixing, or with permission). In my role that day of Gawking Tourist it was strictly 'look, don't touch'! It's fascinating to see knots so distorted yet still doing the job.

The top binding on the sign downhaul seems to bear some distant relationship to the Heli Skid Hitch discussed above to me. (See http://picasaweb.google.com/peterwhennessey/RopeAndKnotsAtSeahousesStringRopeKnots#5396625855046611410 ). Well , ok only insofar as it has a multistrand double RT for a start- the finish is quite different. So no relationship at all then!!

Peter H
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on February 07, 2010, 08:32:52 AM: Not quite a knot, but a fixing any practical Nodeologist might be proud of (at least there is a knot of sorts at the reel)

(http://www.eatliver.com/img/2010/5326.jpg)
courtesy of http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=5326 (http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=5326)

Take a nearly finished reel of tape. Pull off about 2' of tape.
Make a neat 90 degree turn in the flat of the tape, then pass it up through the core, fixing the tape to the core and not to itself.
Put the core at dash height and fix the working end of the tape to the dash
Insert recycled drink cup.

Note For added durability, use Ducktape.
Note for Nodeologists : N.Complexity - first order, N.Insertion - molecular ? ?

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Andy on February 07, 2010, 08:36:09 AM: Hi Derek,

Thanks for the picture.
At last, a knot I can do! :)

Wishing you a fun week,

Andy
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 15, 2010, 08:22:49 PM: Here are some further sightings from the east coast (Cape May area) of
commercial-fishing knotting & cordage & gear--fascinating & colorful stuff.
These were made over the Christmas holiday (and just add to that joy).

First post --here-- will present netting structures, as there is an even
quartet (our forum attachment quota) of them. I'll follow with some
eye knots and some, well, "oddball" structures , all in hawser docklines,
and one pot bridle.

Headropes run along the upper perimeter of a net, and attach hard
plastic floats to the line, which is a polypropylene-coated steel cable
(the pale blue w/orange tracer). The (PP) netting is connected via
some helper cordage (nylon hollow braid) which ties to it in alternating
knots -- a sort of Sheet Bend & a sort of Ground-line Hitch ("sort of" in
being tied in reverse for the GLH and both having both ends tensioned).
Unfortunately, your poor reporter neglected to discern the details of
the knotting at the headline-edge of the (white/nylon) netting!?
Shucks, there seems to be some cleverness here of alternating
Fisherman knots & a Sheet Bend or Square structure. Well, perhaps
I'll have a 2nd chance. In any case, one can see that the nylon binding
cord that connects netting to headline makes alternate hitches & wraps
at each net-knot-node. The working is rightwards, here.

The floats' line is seized with apparently a couple pieces of the binding
cord (as one can discern 4 or more ends), and the line has an interesting
inter-entwining which I cannot figure out. I almost "have it" except that
my idea requires both ends, and so raises the question What do you do
for an encoure?! -- next points away! Well, here's a 2nd to-do on
making up for incomplete observation, alas.

On the lower side of the net lies the (heavy) ground-rope, which I think
is heavy chain encased in old heavy tire-donuts/rings, and that tied on
to wire rope which in turn is connected to some big-hollow-braid-PP=
wrapped <?> -- another missed observation. At each double-clamping
of the wire rope to the <?>/wrapped line there is a small piece of tire
(tyre) spacing the two -- presumably a chafe guard. The nylon binding
cord emerging from the <?> line tied Sheet bends --one atop/behind
the other-- to bights from the net extension. It appears here the the
working ran leftwards then rightwards, as all Sheet Bends at a given
*level* are oriented the same for the usual tying -- end up through
bight and around ... .

The third photo shows connecting cord & knotting leading to the
netting, and that having a *zipper* connection in orange PP
kernmantle cord. Here's an odd thing re this orange cord: there
is a Fisherman's knot (the usual union knot for such stuff) near
the bottom, and going away from this the Sheet Bends
are like-oriented!? In other words, it's as though knotting began
at this point, working way from either side of the union-knot!?
But surely the working came to an end of (orange) cord, and
an extension (short, here) was put on, and the netting knotting
resumed -- and yet now tying the Sheet bends in reverse!??

Moreover, note that in one square of the netting there are
THREE fisherman knots --two in blue-green, and the one in
orange!? I suppose that for some reason the knot tyer thought
to or happened to tie the near-orange+green-union sheet bend
in reverse, then tied on a long piece of orange, and worked
away from that orange union? -- but that sure is odd to have
a 1.5-sides-of-square length of orange cord worked in?!
Pretty odd though thinking that the action was in the other
direction, too, though maybe some tear is more likely there
and explains the short bits of cord here (orange & green).

Finally, here's another look as how netting can be clumped
up to form an edge and that clumping bound with wraps
and binding hitches ("Reverse Groundline Hitch" -- my moniker).
These binders are double (two passes), working leftwards.

--dl*
====

2010-12-22 postscript : More (& repeated) photos and discussion
of the "reverse groundline hitch" can be found in a separate thread:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2265.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2265.0)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 15, 2010, 08:53:46 PM: As promised above, here are some more knots observed over the Christmas
holidays, in Cape May (Lower Township -- Lobster House docks). Here will
come four eye knots (or one noose hitch acting as such, possibly having
started as an "anti-bowline" eye knot and capsized into an effective friction
hitch).

I'll lead off with what I regard as the paradigm "anti-bowline", a term I
use because the end is brought through the bowlinesque central nipping
loop from the opposite side (or direction) from that of the bowline.
I have never seen this simple eye knot presented in a knots book,
though I've seen it in this particular venue here and there, and in
one cordage-concerned book with the photo attributed to Samson
Rope. Knotting Matters has an article about it, several issues
back (which given name escapes me at the moment).

And I'll follow with what appears to be a sort of *frictional* Buntline
Hitch, but could be a capsized anti-bowline of the form where the
end was wrapped in the opposite hand from the first-shown knot
-- making a perfectly symmetric structure (a suitable "lanyard knot", thus).
I think it is more likely that the eye knot was formed and deformed
into this geometry than that a Bunt-line H. was put in with such
force to achieve the slight deflection in the SPart, given the loads
put on it in holding a trawler in a hawser.

Third is an Eskimo bowline, the end firmly nipped and cushioning
the Spart; the knot has seem some battering.

Finally, here are two famliar knots, but one is in an odd dressing.
The Bowline is on the left; note how the loose collar had been
pressed hard against the loop, which is pretty much a (round) turn.
The Overhand eye knot has an odd bight of the end pushed under
the SPart's initial turn!?
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on February 15, 2010, 09:26:55 PM: And here are two others.

One, is quite regular: a lobster-pot bridle, formed in relatively stout
laid polypropylene, with an Overhand eye feeding ends which are
Clove-hitched to the pot sides, and ends tucked back into the lay.
Not how severe (closing in on 150degrees) the angle is from the
eye to the hitches! -- that should deliver a little more than the
hauling force of the SPart to each bridle arm & pot side.

Now, for some irregular structures. Here, again, I'm remiss in
having too quickly photographed without closer inspection (or
a clearer image), and the tangle lower right has given me some
challenge in discerning it; but I think I've figured it out. The
upper structure is a multiple Overhand hitch -- triple -- ; this
looks close to losing nip and spilling. The lower right tangle
--as best I can discern (using shadows!)-- is a union of two
ropes, the one from the boat (SPart off-page right) forms an
Overhand and then a Clove Hitch, whose end is simply short
and invisible (back side); through both of these knots comes
the lower-left rope to form a double half-hitch (not "Two..."
but one that is *doubled*, a full/round turn vs. turn) to abutt
the Overhand. !! (I had at first thought that the tangle was
some sort of eye knot, but if so, then the 2nd leg of that eye
is amazingly exactly hidden by the other above it; however,
the sun is low and the shadow on the pile show no such
line (it shows one and one from the other rope which seems
to lead to a Bowline at bottom left).)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 03, 2010, 06:40:00 AM: I should be able to add another photo of knotting of cable-hauling
tape (thin, half-inch (13mm), lubricated polyester (some was Kevlar!),
but here one I just came upon. The stuff gets used occasionally in
these oddball, tie-up/tie-down tasks. This photo shows branding,
but the tape also carries per-foot markers/numbering.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on March 03, 2010, 10:18:31 AM: Fascinating Dan - where are the ends?

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 04, 2010, 12:23:24 AM: I can only look at the image and guess at where the ends are,
but one is pretty surely down-right of the single part hanging
down, from the 2nd "Half-hitch" made with a bight; the other,
I think, will be of an Overhand eyeknot seen on left side of
the orange tube, which appears to lead around to pass through
its eye rightwards, back around the pole, and then finish from
the left with a turn crossing itself as though to tie a Clove H.,
but instead passing out to do that to the initial departure from the
pole (aka "Two Half-hitches", which are finished with a bight).

As for that other (hoped-for) photo, I think I'll have to go take
it (I know where it is/was), and might have only a sketch; it was
a much tighter binding -- this one is rather loose.

Btw, NEPCO --maker of this "Muletape"-- recommended joining ends
with a Blood knot tied in doubled material. A competing vendor's
recommendation was for the Ring Bend, also with doubled tape.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 13, 2010, 05:59:48 AM: I had another scouting run on the Lobster House docks,
this afternoon. There was nothing new in the mooring
hawsers. (But there was much new dock planking, worth
a photo for the grain, and wood knots.) Nearby, I salvaged
some polypropylene kernmantle (3/8") rope from a stack of
skids/flats/pallets. I didn't mind taking the stuff, for obviously
the users had little regard for it: the rope was untied by a
knife -- cutting what had been a Trucker's Hitch right
below and somewhere above, respectively, the reaved eyes.
Goodness, can these fellows not figure out how to UNtie the knot?
(The eye was a mid-line Overhand eyeknot.)

I also got two small pieces of 5/16" laid CoExOlefin rope,
from ends that were anchored to pallet support pieces
with a Clove Hitch and essentially a Slip-knot (i.e., the
end was run back to be nipped by an Overhand in the
SPart). It took some hard pushing of unfeelingly cold
(barely 50^F & damp & some breeze) thumbs to loosen
the Overhands.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: SirCantaloupe on April 28, 2010, 07:04:16 AM: Some candiates for this thread - found holding down wood pallets stacked probably 20 high on a truck.

Any ideas what they are? I think the one in green is some kind of cinching knot, but I'm no expert.

(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4638/p00096.th.jpg) (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/p00096.jpg/)
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/3052/p00095.th.jpg) (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/p00095.jpg/)
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/2105/p00093n.th.jpg) (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/p00093n.jpg/)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: squarerigger on April 29, 2010, 05:25:21 AM: SirC,

Good question! I think the green one is an attempt at a trucker's hitch tied using a slippery overhand knot, the line continued to an anchor point (not shown) brought back up through the slippery loop and finished around the loop with three half-hitches. The red/black? Not enough detail about the ends to tell....
Hope this is right?

SR
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on April 29, 2010, 05:43:37 AM: Here's another glimpse of The Wild:

www.slack.co.uk/m9/cretem9/large-90.html (http://www.slack.co.uk/m9/cretem9/large-90.html)

(Crete, 'tis said.) The ring painter neverminded the cordage!

As for the knots, I'm at a loss for all of 'em, though the rightmost
one which is the most entangled I'm maybe least curious about
-- of the "tie lots" sort (but, my, oh my, what a tangle!).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 09, 2010, 02:51:44 AM: Quote from: SirCantaloupe on April 28, 2010, 07:04:16 AM
Any ideas what they are? I think the one in green is some kind of cinching knot, but I'm no expert.

Like SR, I can't discern the red-&-black knot.
As for the other, it appears that a Slip-knot eye is indeed used
in some Trucker's-Hitch tensioner, but the tie-off Half-hitches
are going the wrong way from the usual -- back upwards vs.
downwards. This suggests that there is a 2nd rope-sheave
through which the rope runs additionally to this one, and
then it is tied off going upwards as shown (the 2nd sheave
being somewhere beneath what we see). !?

Or maybe not: I thought I saw 3 lines bending around the
white wood, but maybe there's but 2. And the Half-hitching
could be directed upwards from the usual Trucker's Hitch,
the end making a Half-hitch directly upon reeving through
the sheave around other line, rather than around itself.

Thanks for the observation.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 23, 2010, 03:13:41 AM: Got rope?

I recall reading of some climbers/cavers making huge abseils off of
tall cliffs, and having 600' spools of line, among numerous smaller
coils of rope -- and thinking "Wow, what a load ... !".

Here, for one lobster fisherman, a couple 2_000' spools of LARGER
rope (5/8") constitute less than what I understand the full length
of one "trawl"/"string" of groundline-connected pots will be -- about
a mile ! The New Lady pics are from years ago, printed 4x6" prints
photo'd for e-presentation here. That showing the Emerson Cordage
spools (of a new, "sinking" 4-strand rope, as is the white-grey rope
on the gravel lot) is current, of the replacement boat Coppa-setic
("Coppa" is the owner, though I think another man is who captains
the boat now). New regulations to protect the Right whale required
groundline to sink or be boyantly "neutral" and so not rise up in
arcs between pots (the snoods, being short (13' and shorter recently
for whatever reason), are of boyant coextruded PP/PE fibre).

The Clove hitches in the orange 3-strand PP "snoods"/"gangions"
were quite firmly set, perhaps from usage. The tail was always
tucked immediately away from the knot rather than going across
the body -- which I found in some other beachcombed line and
which seemed a less secure-in-positioning attachment. They use
a different hitch, now (sort of a near Reverse Groundline hitch,
where instead of finishing by tucking the end out through the
initial turn, it is tucked down through the lay of the groundline
-- and works best if loaded across the knot, it seems (this
being in a sense how the Clove structure is loaded in a Buntline
Hitch, to explain -- contrasted with that of Two Half-hitches).

I also note that although 4-strand rope enables even tucking
through --i.e., 2 strands on either side--, these fishermen prefer
tucking it under a single strand, which I think is a better nip.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: squarerigger on May 23, 2010, 06:12:58 AM: Dan,

Your photographs are quite stunning - thank you! I think that they would also make for great jigsaw puzzles - very interesting shape/color combinations. I only saw one tuck of the end of a line and it appeared to be under two strands - you mentioned the normal tuck being under one strand of four - was your observation the more typical and this observation of mine atypical or am I not looking correctly? If this line was found in the USA it would appear that fishermen have access to something not normally seen by many of us on the West coast - 4-strand line! I have seen much of it in Europe and UK but never here on the left coast - is it a typical line usage? Thanks again.

SR
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 23, 2010, 07:04:07 PM: Quote from: squarerigger on May 23, 2010, 06:12:58 AM
I think that they would also make for great jigsaw puzzles - very interesting shape/color combinations.

Yes, good point: not only the colors, but also things like lay and
marker strands and ... , ways to discriminate the per-piece parts of
the image (vs. those impossible puzzles that essentially have only
shape as the clue (re this: I've a great one of corks --top view--
that has survived the past two family Christmases UNcompleted)).

Quote
I only saw one tuck of the end of a line and it appeared to be under two strands - you mentioned the normal tuck being under one strand of four - was your observation the more typical and this observation of mine atypical or am I not looking correctly? If this line was found in the USA it would appear that fishermen have access to something not normally seen by many of us on the West coast - 4-strand line! I have seen much of it in Europe and UK but never here on the left coast - is it a typical line usage?

Let me be clear: the first three photos are e-pics of 2000? film-pics,
and are of the New Lady's (floating) PP & CoEx groundlines, which
are 3-strand (and this is determinable from marker strand); the Clove
H. w/end twice-tucked in orange snood is tucked the only way one
can w/3-strand rope --between 1 & 2 strands.
The fourth photo is *direct* (digital) of the present /coming (i.e.,
those spools) cordage in use subsequent to fishery regulations to
protect the Right Whale (which feeds *grazing* w/open jaw and
so can snag buoyant arcs of groundline); there's no need for the
4-strand so far as I know, and somewhere I read data that showed
it to be a little less durable. This is the only place I've seen it (but
it's nearly the only place I do much looking). (I did find one 3/8"
piece of quite soft-laid 4-strand along a roadway in Va. once.)

There is I think some information about the changeover of cordage
(from buoyant to sinking/neutral) in Maine, main source of the
issue, with some photos; I don't recall noting (or not) 3-/4-strand
aspect. And at this volume, I think dealings are measured by
weight not length.

I'm sorry I didn't better note the Everson spool label; I can now
only read the "5/8" & "2000" but not composition; looking at a
close-up photo I have of the colorful orange-white stuff it must
be white PES mixed w/orange CoEx PP/PE & maybe the bits of
black are pure PP. Maybe 4-strand is supposed to endure the
passage through the V-squeeze of the pot hauler better!?

- - - - - - -

Across the narrow channel on which New Lady floated lies the
Lobster House (restaurant --year round--, com.fish. docks);
there, I found two 3/8"-ish ropes in a modified form:
it was common to see an orange kernmantle w/parallel core
fibres (orange also) used for net mending and general tie-down
(of netting onto skids/pallets/flats; of things on board), which
construction is seen in various sizes and much in a bluish green;
and there is a hollow braid (small hollow, though) of adjacent
yarns/strands of white polyester & black PP -- giving a zig-zag
appearance.
Well, the new-to-my-note cordage had for each a more substantial
core -- 5 slightly twisted strands (3 blue-green, 1 charcoal & black,
1 black (!!?)) in the orange vice parallel fibres-- ; and SOME core
(pure polyester fibre --I've whipped the evidence, darn), with one
black PP set replaced with the blue-green to mark the difference
(I presume). It wasn't clear to me that the original of this black
& white cordage had a specific purpose; I only saw it used to
tie down pallet'd netting (and rather crudely done, chopping
such tie-downs vs. untying them (making me feel no regret
or scruples on acquiring samples)).

In the case of these orange ropes, I can count individual fibres
(monofilament) and get an idea of sizes between them -- i.e.,
was much added by the 5-strand core vs. parallel fibres, and
are the mantles the same, count-wise (I will presume that the
fibres are the same thickness!). To the eye, they look the same,
as do the mantles of the black'n'white cordage.

Before & perpendicularly docked at this small dock to the New
Lady (now Coppa-setic) is a conch-fishing boat, and they use
mostly nylon(?) kernmantle of thin laid yarns, diamond braid
mantle and parallel core. Sizes range from 7-9mm, I think.
I recall finding 30 smallish spools of 1000' of such cordage
-- quite a bundle, too! This fisherman has used round pots,
with concrete-rim ballast, heavy monofil top rim guard against
conchs crawling up & out (they apparently are willing to crawl
over and fall down into ...), and a 3-leg bridle to haul straight
upwards (in contrast to a 2-leg one to haul from an end of a
usually oval'd pot, appropriately designed to hold catch when
in that disposition).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on June 02, 2010, 08:33:29 PM: Here are two photos from Bivalve / Port Norris, South (New) Jersey
-- yes, the very place Ashley mentions on pp. 6-7 (Port Norris is a
small town within a mile of the (nearly?)nobody-lives-there Bivalve
commercial-fishing area). The first is of a knot seen in some newly
affixed haul lines for <??? (what nature of "pot" I'm yet to learn)>;
the 2nd shows a stack of said wire pots. The knot clearly has the
loose structure of a Bowline, but with the lay-tucked tail
will not achieve that geometry. (Tucking the tail through the lay
is a common security measure in commercial-fishing knotting.)

What puzzles me about these "pots" is that:
- they have no opening but for the gate that one can see
  kept closed by the bungee-cord-&-hook, which means that
  it is only opened manually by the fisherman (and there are
  no conical ingress openings for things to enter and be trapped)

- they have "re-bar" (concrete reinforcement iron bars) trim
added EITHER at the top or the bottom of pot (or else the
pot assumed either orientation vis-a-vis this re-bar; now, the
re-bar can be seen as ballast and also as structural reinforcement
-- and is what is tied to, e.g..

- they have those odd wire-mesh "pontoons" at the bottom (or,
depending on actual disposition and that re-bar positioning,
... who knows!?)

My GUESS is that:
these are nests / holding pens for oyster trays;
that oysters are inserted into each of the 3 shelves and put
out into local water to feed and grow (and ... ?), and to be
easily harvested later via the buoyed haul line.

the re-bar was put on initially for strengthening the top
for the sake of hauling; and some then decided it could
go at the bottom for ballast ; the two pots on the right
side are like this, with a 4-leg (tied to corners) bridle
(and the re-bar at bottom yet has that center span which
is the tie-to point for the re=bar-at-top pots)!?

and the "pontoons" of smaller-mesh wire keep the shelves
off of the bottom.

(I asked one Merewald staffer and she said "crabs" and I
knew I needed to ask someone else.)

Two bonus pics, of the Merewald[=>Meerwald] in sale (gaining central
sail by participant labor & staff direction), add to the flavor of
the venue. (Much of Bivalve though is crabbing.) The Meerwald
and its docks are recipients of some state (I think) preservation
funding. The boat makes its rounds on the eastern seaboard:
Philadelphia, Salem (up the Delaware from Bivalve, Bridgeton,
but near), Burlington, Atlantic City, Beach Haven, Jersey City,
Alpine, Greenwich (near Bridgeton/Port Norris (site of an old,
authentic "tea party"), with a tiny maritime museum), Edgewater,
and Cape May (wow -- for August & 1st week September)
(and with some "Nautical Knots" teaching).
(Btw, I noted some new spools of manila 3/4"? rope @dock;
maybe there isn't synthetic look-a-like rope used.)

--dl*
====

[6/04 edit to correct 'Mere' to 'Meer' for the the AJ Meerwald vessel]
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: squarerigger on June 02, 2010, 09:06:02 PM: Looks like the Merewald found some wind that day! I gather that the southern New Jersey area was once known for oyster fishing - could there be a new industry starting up? Those pots do look rather 'new' to my untrained eye...

SR
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: wood on June 09, 2010, 10:26:58 PM: (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/rope%20and%20leather/018.jpg)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/rope%20and%20leather/019.jpg)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/rope%20and%20leather/002.jpg)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/rope%20and%20leather/008.jpg)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/rope%20and%20leather/011.jpg)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/rope%20and%20leather/013.jpg)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss113/2wood/rope%20and%20leather/015.jpg)

I had to do something after my computer got fried by lightning so I took pictures of the electic company replacing the transformer 20 feet from my house. They couldn't use their cherry picker due to really soft ground. They used block and tackle. They used a square knot, truckers hitch, cow hitch, line splice, loop splice and an overhand knot to form a loop. The superviser said the rope was a manila nylon blend but I'm not so sure about that. The splices were already in the rope and I didn't want to ask who did them because I wanted my electric back on.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: aknotter on June 17, 2010, 06:42:28 PM: In the Tropico Gold Mine - Rosamond, California. Go here . . . http://picasaweb.google.com/aknotter/100613TropicoGoldMine#5482727540300381266 for a closer look. Go here . . . http://picasaweb.google.com/aknotter/100613TropicoGoldMine to see all the pix.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on July 14, 2010, 05:33:16 AM: I don't understand what's being done here (or exactly what is done),
but it was certainly worth the photo. It's some sort of union of multiple
lines, which are knotted themselves, and then seized w/Half-hitching.

Naturally, I couldn't just walk off with the heap and sort it out later.

:D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on August 09, 2010, 07:39:30 PM: It was suggested at KHWW that this is really a knot tied in the wild
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/asemery/treeknot.jpg)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: knot4u on August 09, 2010, 08:48:00 PM: I'll be damned. I guess nature prefers the granny knot over the square knot. :D

Quote from: asemery on August 09, 2010, 07:39:30 PM
It was suggested at KHWW that this is really a knot tied in the wild
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/asemery/treeknot.jpg)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 05, 2010, 12:57:49 PM: I have tried unsuccessfully to fwd pictures of rope I found last month while beachcombing south of River of Ponds, Newfoundland & Labrador.
They are rejected for being too big. I cropped but this did not work. I do not have the computer skills to do much else. If anyone wants a look they will have to contact me through my email address [profile] and I will fwd direct. D
p.s. Hurricane Earl roared up the west coast yesterday. I wish I could hit the beaches today!!
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: SS369 on September 05, 2010, 03:04:58 PM: Hello DEE,

if you have Windows XP and want a free image resizing program go to this page >

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx)

Scroll down the right side of the page till you find >

"Image Resizer
Download ImageResizer.exe
521 KB 2 min @ 28.8 Kbps"

Download and install.
From there on out, if you want to make an image smaller all you have to do is right click on the image or images (can do batch resizing) and pick from the small window that will open, what you want to do.
Make sure to click on the small window where it says "advanced" and put a check in the square that reads "Make pictures smaller but not larger". Then click "OK".
I usually will make a smaller copy of the picture as to Not ruin the original.

The program works for Windows 7 as well.

Totally safe and totally free. Best of all, it works flawlessly every time.

Hope this helps.

SS
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 05, 2010, 03:58:23 PM: Thanks for the info. I will try it. You will know if I was successful if pictures show up..... D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 05, 2010, 08:11:49 PM: Fisherman's Knot from west coast of the island of Newfoundland.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 05, 2010, 10:50:19 PM: From beachcombing on the west coast of the island. D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 05, 2010, 11:45:34 PM: Rat's Nest
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on September 06, 2010, 08:07:06 AM: Quote from: DEE on September 05, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Fisherman's Knot from west coast of the island of Newfoundland.

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1017.0;attach=1627;image)

Now, if you were tying this knot - what would the other side of the knot look like?

Derek

PS - Dee, although I applaud your strapline, I think to follow the principle might land one in considerable bother.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 06, 2010, 11:31:30 AM: I will attempt to send better pics later today, with different angles.
Sorry but I do not understand your post script. D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 06, 2010, 05:43:15 PM: Quote from: DerekSmith on September 06, 2010, 08:07:06 AM
Quote from: DEE on September 05, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Fisherman's Knot from west coast of the island of Newfoundland.
image deleted, not repeated ! (a hint for knot4u, above) ;)

Now, if you were tying this knot - what would the other side of the knot look like?

Derek

That should be well enough indicated: seeing the raveled tail stuck
between strands --typical fisherman securing-- and extending downwards
& rightwards, you have the two ends --SPart, Tail-- known and can
trace either back into the hitch to the bight; the SPart makes an
extra wrap, gets a Sheet-bend-esque tail tuck on the visible side,
and has a 2nd one behind the scenes, so to speak. Not that one
couldn't fantasize some irregularity out of view, but the principle
violated there is one of taking the natural, simple explanation.

What is less well (but I suppose, still...) indicated is the nature
of the green bight: as there is no bias of loading shown in
the two legs, I deduce that they are from an eye --is it spliced,
or (Overhand, likely) knotted ? (Although there is some
slight *crunched-strand* deformation where the tail wraps
around the lower bight leg at/after its first tuck en route to
its final one, which suggests that this leg might be more
loaded!?)

- - - - - -

Ah, Newfoundland! I have (I hope!) a lovely old book about the
supposed decline of Newfoundland circa 1960s where the people
of the S'west coast (looks better called "west half of south coast")
who clung to a maritime existence in the rocky recesses amid a
harsh climate were coerced into moving --sometimes floating the
old house at sea(!)-- inland and trading individual, self-supporting
skills to factory ones, and so on.
[The Rock Within the Sea
cf. www.amazon.com/This-Rock-within-Farley-Mowat/dp/0771066325/ref=cm_cr-mr-title (http://www.amazon.com/This-Rock-within-Farley-Mowat/dp/0771066325/ref=cm_cr-mr-title)
]

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 06, 2010, 08:57:08 PM: It was called Centralization and it is still going on. There were two remote communities that closed last year. Another is due to close this fall. Gov't assistance is better now and no one is floating their house across the bay. The old communities are still active in the summer as cabins and people still go back to plant their gardens, get a few trout and berries and moose in the fall. You can find them on google maps [satellite] around the coast and see where the old houses and churches were. Another one of Joey's legacies that we are stuck with.... D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DEE on September 13, 2010, 07:16:22 PM: Sorry to say that the picture of the fisherman's knot was taken as I was recycling the line. Those two pieces are now in the trunk of the car waiting for the next car or van I see on the side of the road with a mattress tied on the roof. You know, the one that wants to get airborne......
I will check the rat's nest before I start to recycle to see if there is a duplicate. It all came from the same area... D
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 16, 2010, 06:07:00 AM: Here are some fresh photos of 3-leg conch(whelk)-pot bridles.
(There are pots hauled on end by just 2 legs, to distinguish;
and I have found a couple hauled in the 3-leg disposition
(i.e., straight upwards, not on-end upwards) but with just
2 legs.)
Here, the 1-2 legs are tied as is typical in an Overhand
eye knot and the 3rd leg is reeved through this knot and
then stoppered with an Overhand stopper . Note that
there are two positions of this 3rd leg through the knot, shown.

(Cape May, New Jersey)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 24, 2010, 03:46:49 AM: Freshly returned from Cape May Point, here's a photo of one beached
rope-etc. clump, from which I harvested some bits, but didn't take
the time to fully untangle it.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: sbachar on October 01, 2010, 03:33:14 PM: Below and in the next post are pictures taken in Kashgar - far western China. I have not identified the various knots (no surprise given my elementary knowledge), but thought they might be of interest.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: sbachar on October 01, 2010, 03:33:47 PM: One more from Kashgar.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: squarerigger on October 01, 2010, 06:15:33 PM: Wow!

Now, that's a hobble! :o

SR
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: KnotMe on October 02, 2010, 06:19:07 PM: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sourendu_gupta/5033232986/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sourendu_gupta/5033232986/)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: roberthope6 on October 29, 2010, 12:20:17 AM: Ha. Like the pic. Bird seems nonplussed.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on October 29, 2010, 08:42:21 AM: I like this too - bird seems to me to be a reincarnated knotter casting a critical eye and wishing it had the fingers to do better!

Barry
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on November 11, 2010, 09:12:49 PM: Here are some views of the working parts of lobster fishing:

1. The pot-hauler area aboard. (I don't know if the line is let drop
into the seemingly built-for-just-that hold ; clearly, the attached
pots don't go there but to be harvested, re-baited, and set for
re-dropping at the stern, all the while joined to the groundline.)

2. A closer look at the pot-hauler wheels; the re-direction pulley
is on a swivel to be set out for work, in & secured otherwise.
(The support post & arm are not in good view here, just the big
pulley wheel.)

3. A close-up and *ropes-eye* perspective of the lower pot-hauler
wheels --small, lower feed wheel and the angled/beveled squeeze-grip
hauling wheel with its deep pointed line-extractor on the bottom side.

4. Here's a pot that has been hauled hard! Maybe the main issue with
re-use isn't its function to trap, but it's geometry to be anywhere lower
in a stack for deployment (with its dented/shortened corner). And note
the cordage structures : clove hitches w/half-hitched-&-tucked ends ;
Overhand mid-line eyeknot (to be tied to by snood w/sheet bend w/tucked
end).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Wed on December 13, 2010, 11:54:48 AM: I pass this tree ever so often. But it didn't occur to me to photograph it until recently. It is "S-laid".
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on December 13, 2010, 12:02:13 PM: I don't know whether it's true, but I have heard they have the opposite "lay" in the southern hemisphere. Maybe roo could enlighten us?
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Transminator on December 13, 2010, 03:11:20 PM: Quote from: Wed on December 13, 2010, 11:54:48 AM
I pass this tree ever so often. But it didn't occur to me to photograph it until recently. It is "S-laid".

Might also be a (not fully tightened) multi-strand MWK ready to be crowned
Interesting find.

Greetings
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 19, 2010, 03:31:33 AM: Here are some recent finds:

1. a dubious multi-overhand mooring hitch (it would at
least help to have the end tucked between the dogging
of tail around SPart);

2. a better mooring, w/half-hitches & round turn;

3. and some fisherman's knots in lobster-fishing groundline
(of the floating sort, which is either used at a non-offending
season (vis-a-vis the right whale) or in violation of rules to
use sinking or "neutrally buoyant" line --not sure of wording);
note that they are of both "concordant" & "discordant" orientation
(overhand abutting overhand ) --tied by the same, or different person?!

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 22, 2010, 07:20:22 PM: Just putting in view here, as I put in postscript to my post #96
of 2010-02-15th --notice of other knots in the wild !

2010-12-22 postscript : More (& repeated) photos and discussion
of the "reverse groundline hitch" can be found in a separate thread:
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2265.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2265.0)

:)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Benboncan on March 03, 2011, 11:17:36 AM: A Bowline with added security ?
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/benboncan/5494157304/)

Need some help here Whatever I am doing HTML BBcode url inside inserting image doesn't work.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/benboncan/5494157304/
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 20, 2011, 12:14:22 AM: In response to some discussion elsewhere about stopper knots,
here are some photos of knots found in one (?) commercial
fisher's conch-pot rigging --mostly to stop against foam floats,
but in one case an overhand stopper is shown used as part
of the pot bridle's hitch to the pot (with tail "hog-ringed"
stapled to S.Part --and I've seen such a hitch used to bend
to a steel line clip).

(Port Norris is adjacent to Bivalve, a surviving crabbing and
oystering (by use of cages) place along the Delaware Bay/River,
near Bridgeton. Ashley (pp.6-7) tells of a visit there, departing
the (very tortuous) Cohansey River from Bridgeton and sailing
down to Bivalve, in a discussion coincidentally about stoppers.
It remains a fertile ground for finding knotty things, illusory
or actual --depends on the eye of the beholder! )

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Takler on April 19, 2011, 09:37:19 PM: Today I made a some pictures of old barge, where I found old ropes, rest of knots etc. The pictures (not all - first part, today) were uploaded to galleries on my facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/fbx/?set=a.180137795372009.64325.100001273706937

Please enjoy.

The barge was found in the 50's last century, but few weeks ago was rise from the bottom of the Oder river in Szczecin.

brgds

Marcin, Takler

P.S.
The album added fully now
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: xarax on May 02, 2011, 12:16:27 AM: A not-so-beautiful knot, in such-a-beautiful harbour...Well, we should not expect everything to be of the same quality at the same time, should we ? :)
(Honfleur, Normandy)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: knot4u on May 02, 2011, 08:53:21 AM: ^It looks like Three Half Hitches came loose, which could happen over time and with jostling.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: xarax on May 02, 2011, 11:08:08 AM: Quote from: knot4u on May 02, 2011, 08:53:21 AM
It looks like Three Half Hitches came loose, which could happen over time and with jostling.

AND the round turn around the large diameter bollard is also questionable, in such a use and material.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: knot4u on May 02, 2011, 07:34:18 PM: Quote from: xarax on May 02, 2011, 11:08:08 AM
Quote from: knot4u on May 02, 2011, 08:53:21 AM
It looks like Three Half Hitches came loose, which could happen over time and with jostling.

AND the round turn around the large diameter bollard is also questionable, in such a use and material.

OK, great...What would you have tied? Also, without using hindsight, why is a Round Turn and Three Half Hitches inherently wrong here?
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: xarax on May 02, 2011, 11:32:49 PM: The (additional) round turn around a bollard of such a large diameter, with this material, means huge friction at the wrong place. It only reveals a naive - but mistaken - intention to, somehow, "secure" a mooring knot...
However, doing this, the knot s nub can not move freely around the bollard, following the movement of the ship s hawsehole or bitt, and the tension on the eye leg of standing part can not be trasferred to the second leg, that with the half hitches. So the half hitches will get loose, sooner or later, because they are not loaded at all times, as they should.
There are many better ways to tie a mooring knot. I always prefer some "fancy" secure form of the bowline - just for show off, because the simple bowline is always secure a 100% for such use and material.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 09, 2012, 07:03:38 AM: I came across some utility trucks parked for the evening,
and couldn't help but notice the short lengths of ropes
hanging from them. Having the LX3 w/me, I snapped
some shots of knots in the wild --some pretty interesting
ones, too!

Derek esp. should like seeing what he called the myrtle
eyeknot, which ties to one eyebolt in a pretty heavy, thick
board; the other end of the rope was probably intended to
be the same knot (one or the other, i.e.), but the tail comes
in from the opposite side of the nipping loop (what defines,
for me, an "anti-bowline"). In the latter case, the tail
is better wrapped around towards the eye, unlike here.
Given the weight of the board and the broad angle of this
rope, the knots see a good amount of tension.

Next comes something familiar, and something ... --well,
it makes a good puzzle. We might borrow the twisted
(twisting) language of a former high official and say that
it is "an unfamiliar familiarity" ! ;D I'll leave it as the hint.
This eyeknot's eye is to the lower right, SPart atop tail,
which are taped together, at the left.

Finally, comes a common bend, what I blendedly call the squaREef
knot. Interestingly, it takes a geometry here much like what
forms naturally in webbing --one U-turn being pretty straight,
the other folding around the first (and it is this side, in tape,
that seems to have the breakpoint)!?

Finally,
--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 25, 2012, 02:52:03 AM: Here is a further look at commercial-fishing knotting,
manifest in one lobster fishing boat's gear, as found
11 March 2012.

I'm only just remarking in looking over these photos
--though it seems apparent, also, in those @msg.#28 or 28--
that the "near groundline hitch" (my name) is set
quite loose, to be tightened (such as might happen) only
during usage!? I think that this enables the knot to remain
rather loose, with the initial turn nipping like a bowline's
central loop, unless loaded from the line being hauled in
the opposite direction, in which case the turn might close
to the rest of the knot better.

The first set of 4 (of two posts of 4@) shows the overall
layout as I found it on the evening of the 10th. There
are heaps of floating (PP or CoEx PP/PE) groundline on
the dock lot --and some new-looking snoods with very
loose hitches tied to them. There is a spool of new,
sinking longline being unspooled with snoods tied on
at the spool, then hauled (by pot hauler, apparently) out
through a re-direction block (which I regret not photographing
and noting its clearance, vis-a-vis a snood hitch passing
through it!), and back aboard boat --at which point, its
having passed the knot tyer, the next snood is then
attached.

In photo #2, the boat is behind the viewer,
and the spool below-left, hauled line returning lower-right
--you can see that the snood is hitched at the spool.
In a later photo, you can see that the knot is still loose
as it is turning over the pot-hauler V-grip wheel; and
later still one can discern the looseness by the pot stacks.

Aboard the boat, where stacks 7 across and 6 high are
in place, tied down (from an elevated metal rail on the
port side to the lowest pot to starboard, w/trucker's hitch),
and ... well, at some later point, the pots need to get bait!
(Maybe it was figured that this was something that could
be done to while away the hours sailing out to sea?!)

The pot bridles are of roughly 1/2" PP laid line, with
an overhand loop as the center knot, each end tied
onto respective pot sides with a clove hitch with its
end tucked back through the bridle's lay. Snoods are
hitched to the eyes with a double sheet bend with
the tail tucked back through the lay. The spanking new
snoods in that pale blue CoEx PP/PE 3-strand line are
about 9' long (by crude measure), as cut.

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 25, 2012, 03:04:49 AM: Here is the completion to a set of 8 photos of lobster
pots and their associated rigging.

#5 shows a trio of what I have named
"near ground-line hitches" --which means that they
are *near*ly the familiar hitch but instead of tucking
the tail out through the initial turn, it is tucked down
through the lay of the object rope, which is more
secure in keeping the lines attached and in position.

#6 shows the pot hauler dumping line into a small
hold. Someone must walk the snood-hitched parts
down the boat to the needy pots (here, the top row
wants attachments to the ground line).

#7 & #8 show the stacks of pots (and one can see
the considerable expanse/run of ground line along
the starboard deck!).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: aknotter on April 28, 2012, 06:17:32 PM: Saw this in an Orthopedics office. Used when setting a badly broken wrist. Fits on the fingers and weights are then placed on the arm to pull downward. Then the Docs fix & cast the wrist.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: firebight on May 22, 2012, 10:00:17 AM: Does this count as a Knot in the Wild? Our typical Rack, Pulley, Mariner (RPM) system used in rope rescue. The anchor is a wrap 3 pull 2 webbing. Tandem prusiks on the main line. The setup is configured for raising with the pulleys in a Z configuration.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: firebight on May 25, 2012, 07:36:12 AM: I bet there are some good knots in the wild on the Star of India. The Star of India is the world's oldest active sailing ship and is located about 10 miles from me. I might take a drive down there and post some pics.

http://www.sdmaritime.org/star-of-india/
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 25, 2012, 06:28:43 PM: Quote from: firebight on May 25, 2012, 07:36:12 AM
I bet there are some good knots in the wild on the Star of India.
The Star of India is the world's oldest active sailing ship and is located about 10 miles from me.
I might take a drive down there and post some pics.

Thanks for that URLink.
Yes, you might find knotting of interest aboard the ship.

I want to caution that (a) this KITWild theme is intended
to seek out, simply, what is --what folks actually DO
in knotting--, irrespective of any quality ("good knots") judgement;
and (b) it could be that what's aboard The Star... is not all so
"in the wild", i.e., original/natural, but possibly somewhat
contrived by what was believed to be appropriate for the ship,
maybe copied from dubious information in some knots book.

Further, I'm assuming that there might be other floating
vessels with associated knotting to observe, in the wild;
note that, too.

Good hunting,
:)

ps: To the fire dept. gear, I missed an opportunity, myself,
last wknd to ask about bags of 200' (looked to be) 11mm?
kernmantle rope : was there a knot (fig.8 eye ?) in one
end?; why were bags plastic-lock-tie sealed? ; what uses
were expected, and what would happen to rope(s) after
use? (aha, hopes for test specimens!). . . . now I'm at
"next time".
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: firebight on May 25, 2012, 09:53:08 PM: Quote
ps: To the fire dept. gear, I missed an opportunity, myself,
last wknd to ask about bags of 200' (looked to be) 11mm?
kernmantle rope : was there a knot (fig.8 eye ?) in one
end?; why were bags plastic-lock-tie sealed? ; what uses
were expected, and what would happen to rope(s) after
use? (aha, hopes for test specimens!). . . . now I'm at
"next time".

Well, the kernmantle rope we use is 8mm to make prusiks. I think the kernmantle does not have enough elongation for lowering rope. I believe we use a 13-14mm Composite double braid dynamic rope.
Yes we usually put the end of the rope, push through the hole, and tie a fig 8 on a bight. This is mostly for a stopper knot, but in a pinch you could put a carabiener on the bight and anchor the line. As for the plastic lock tie seal, never gave it much thought other than keeps the rope clean and prevents it from dumping out while in a rig. I attached a image of a training drill I was at a few months ago. You can see the rope bags just laying around.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: firebight on May 26, 2012, 05:12:20 PM: Very strange, I think this thread hexed me ??? Just hours after my last post, my boss (The Captain) calls me up. He asked me to clean and inspect our 18 bags of rope (Oh joy) :-\.

Sometimes if an end is bad, we will cut the bad end off and record the new rope length in the rope log. So I just may be able to get you a sample. No promises though.

:)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: firebight on May 27, 2012, 12:27:28 AM: Quote
I think the kernmantle does not have enough elongation for lowering rope. I believe we use a 13-14mm Composite double braid dynamic rope.

I have to make a correction, I was wrong when I made the above statement. I get my climbing and rescue rope confused. Well, anyways, it is Kernmantle rope, my bad. Here are a few images of the rope bags in the back of my truck.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: firebight on May 28, 2012, 06:45:03 PM: So far, I have washed about 1200 feet of rope, only 12 more bags to go. I have found that loosely daisy chaining the rope before putting in the washer prevents the rope from getting tangled.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Hrungnir on November 06, 2012, 06:51:56 PM: I came over this picture of a workplace. The company is trying to give work experience to youths which have dropped out of school.

I found the rope interesting, since it serves a job at a place where being effective is important, as well is security (the object looks heavy).
(http://g.api.no/obscura/pub/978x1200r/04584/1352206809000_Jan-Eirik_Bj_rkly__4584041978x1200r.jpg)

I've identified a cow hitch and an overhand knot at the working end. Rest of it seems to be a a lot of mess. There's also some rope work in the background to the left.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: kd8eeh on November 06, 2012, 08:50:16 PM: i have seen a lot of these knots used by pilots. i would have put this here earlier, but i didn't even know this thread existed. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=4112.0
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Hrungnir on August 20, 2014, 11:34:15 PM: A boat at the harbour was tied up with a bowline in the front and this knot in the back.
(http://bildr.no/thumb/UWZMZk02.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/UWZMZk02)
Is it a perfection loop? Sorry I could only get a picture of the front side of the knot.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: SS369 on August 21, 2014, 02:03:27 AM: Quote from: roo on August 20, 2014, 11:56:55 PM
Quote from: Hrungnir on August 20, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
A boat at the harbour was tied up with a bowline in the front and this knot in the back.
(http://bildr.no/thumb/UWZMZk02.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/UWZMZk02)
Is it a perfection loop? Sorry I could only get a picture of the front side of the knot.
That knot/rope looks very abused. Without another view angle, it's hard to say what it is, but if the other knot was a bowline, I'd wager that this is also a bowline, with an extra tuck of the tail to make it shoot out the side as shown.

Looks just like the Perfection loop to me. A bowline has one eye leg that comes out sort of perpendicular to the other.

It looks like it has seen considerable loading and probably never has been untied.
I wonder what the screw shackle is used for?

SS

Edit: Added picture of bowline and OP loop for comparison.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 21, 2014, 06:53:07 AM: Quote from: SS369 on August 21, 2014, 02:03:27 AM
Looks just like the Perfection loop to me.
A bowline has one eye leg that comes out sort of perpendicular to the other.

It looks like it has seen considerable loading and probably never has been untied.
I wonder what the screw shackle is used for?

SS
+1
Also, if one ties & loads the angler's/perfection loop,
the result will show similar disposition --i.p., the way
the upper eye leg is slightly more *down* than
the other vis-a-vis the rough plain one might
see the nub set in.

And, yes, to the loading/usage and lack of (maybe
little possibility of) being untied (as much as would
be a splice in its place!).

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on August 24, 2014, 01:11:15 PM: Quote from: Hrungnir on August 20, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
A boat at the harbour was tied up with a bowline in the front and this knot in the back.
(http://bildr.no/thumb/UWZMZk02.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/UWZMZk02)
Is it a perfection loop? Sorry I could only get a picture of the front side of the knot.

Post edit: Please note that statements below are false, see next two posts.
/Inkanyezi

In my opinion, it bears little resemblance to the perfection loop. It might be something else that perhaps was tied by mistake. I tried to reproduce it, and I came up with something very poor. I did not succeed in dressing the angler's loop to resemble the one in the image.

The perfection loop shares the "hinge", about which there is so much verbosity regarding the zeppelin knot. The curve of the loop leg toward the top of the image remains visible no matter how hard I try to hide it.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on August 24, 2014, 06:43:28 PM: Quote from: Inkanyezi on August 24, 2014, 01:11:15 PM
Quote from: Hrungnir on August 20, 2014, 11:34:15 PM
A boat at the harbour was tied up with a bowline in the front and this knot in the back.
(http://bildr.no/thumb/UWZMZk02.jpeg) (http://bildr.no/view/UWZMZk02)
Is it a perfection loop? Sorry I could only get a picture of the front side of the knot.
In my opinion, it bears little resemblance to the perfection loop.
It might be something else that perhaps was tied by mistake. ...
I did not succeed in dressing the angler's loop to resemble the one in the image.

!!! ?
I'm amazed, really!
The knot is, as noted above, the angler's/perfection loop
--to which it bears, unsurprisingly, resemblance
(ameliorated by the (a) hard-loading compression/setting
and (b) some *hard-life* banging against objects).

Inkanyezi, you dont' show this --no : for you don't show
the named loop, but some "tugboat bowline" like knot.
In your supposed a./p. loop, the SPart should connect
to the hard-set (actual) turn of UPPER part;
the tail returns as the lower eye leg, et cetera.
The named eyeknot is of an overhand base (not yours)!

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: [Inkanyezi] gone on August 24, 2014, 09:34:40 PM: getting rusty... I stand corrected :-[
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: roo on August 25, 2014, 12:23:55 AM: Quote from: SS369 on August 21, 2014, 02:03:27 AM
Looks just like the Perfection loop to me. A bowline has one eye leg that comes out sort of perpendicular to the other.
I was unable to find any bowline variation that mimics the leg arrangement shown in the original photo, so I'm leaning toward the possibility that it is a Perfection Loop or Angler's Loop with the standing part's collar rotated out of view. It'd be a rare find in the field.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on August 30, 2014, 07:25:49 PM: I lost the nylon strap with a buckle that I use to keep the front wheel of my bicycle from spinning and swinging side tio side when I am carrying it on my bicycle rack on my car. I was considering what knot to use when I read about the Gleipnir Binder in the June issue of KM. It holds the wheel in place and does not loosen with all the vibration caused by driving. It is easy to tie and untie when I am ready to use the bicycle
(http://i.imgur.com/cAi2jzo.jpg)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: xarax on September 02, 2014, 03:41:47 PM: Your pictures are not very clear, but I think they show a Gleipnir without crossed tails. If you want more friction and resistance to vibrations, I believe you should cross the tails. If the Gleipnir is adjacent to the object, there are two variations ( A and B ) to do that, shown at :
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg30227#msg30227
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg30228#msg30228
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg30229#msg30229
http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2075.msg30230#msg30230
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on September 03, 2014, 09:15:04 PM: xarax
To make this "Gleipnir" binder I formed the nipping coil and took both ends together around the frame and wheel of the bicycle. I placed one end through the nipping coil from the front and the other through the coil from the back. Pulling on both ends in opposite ditections tightens the knot. Tony
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on September 06, 2014, 10:08:11 PM: Slightly better photo. Both ends go around frame of bicycle and then around the wheel. The upper strand goes down through the nipping loop and the lower strand goes through the opposite way. This works for me. Would not want it any tighter.
http://i.imgur.com/3WIpeyJ.jpg[/img]](http://i.imgur.com/3WIpeyJ.jpg) (http://[img width=600 height=450)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on September 07, 2014, 04:52:30 PM: Quote from: xarax on September 06, 2014, 11:09:54 PM

Quote from: asemery on September 06, 2014, 10:08:11 PM
Both ends go around frame of bicycle and then around the wheel.

[translation :: Both ends go together/adjacent (twinned) ...
and are brought back around to confront the bight+turNip ]

The upper strand goes down through the nipping loop and the lower strand goes through the opposite way.

You said the same thing in your previous post ...

Let's dispose of further *post pollution* to this thread
which is better left as posted sightings of fact, and not
in-depth discussions (within reason).

And the simple statement that made clear the debated
structure here unfortunately has an IGKT-limited meaning:
"read about the Gleipnir Binder in the June issue of KM."

In Knotting Matters, the particular Gleipnir variant that
is presented is one in which a bight with a turNip is brought
around the bound object to meet its two tails, which are then
reeved through it in opposite directions --and usually to be
hauled tight by pulling opposite to each other and perpen-
dicular to the axis of binder tension. (This is a variant that
hopes to deliver tension immediately to the turNip,
in contrast to the original structure which requires the
tension to be transmitted through the line around the
object --something that is often not so well done.)

In this bight+tails variant, there is no viable crossing
of tails, but only some thought as to which side of the
turNip re its legs the reeving should lie (i.e., should
the loaded side of the tail lie adjacent the leg of the
turNip or not --likely a minor point).
Or... I should submit that it is not viable with the
minimal such turNip; but add a round turn to this,
and then ... the crossing seems to be sustainable, and
we can discuss this in a dedicated (perhaps one of the
existing ...) thread.

(Now --OUCH-- I must work at loosening such an
extra-turn knot around my not-yet-gone-blue thigh!!)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: xarax on September 07, 2014, 05:45:37 PM: Quote from: Dan_Lehman on September 07, 2014, 04:52:30 PM
the particular Gleipnir variant that is presented is one in which a bight with a turNip is brought around the bound object to meet its two tails, which are then reeved through it in opposite directions

This does not happen to ANY other Gleipnir variant ( the ones based on the Clove hitch and the twin crossing knot included ), except "yours" (1) :) So, I guess that the "Gleipnir" discussed in KM is the not-so-bad ( but not very good either ) binder #35 ? (1). However the need to enter through opposite directions is universal to all Gleipnir variants - it is dictated by the need for a "balanced" nipping loop, i.e. a nipping loop which can not revolve on the spot. In the bowline, this is achieved by the bowline s "proper" collar, so we do not need tensioned lines entering into the nipping loop from opposite sides.

1. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2981.msg17782#msg17782

Quote from: Dan_Lehman on September 07, 2014, 04:52:30 PM
In this bight+tails variant, there is no viable crossing of tails

Indeed, for TWO reasons :
First, because the lines, before they approach to and enter into the nipping loop, they come from the same direction. Therefore, they can not form stable L-shaped segments, which, then, can be crossed, and form the "elbow" configuration.
Second, because "your" Gleipnir variant is more symmetric than the "tight" Gleipnirs I had shown, so there could had been no difference between the A and B variations ( based on twisted / left- or right-handed double helical tails ), even if those variations could had existed.
However, this was the reason I had not presented this variation, but the "variation finally presented" as the "simple-hitch-a-la-Gleipnir". The advantage ( re friction ) of the crossed / twisted / helicoid tails is too big to be ignored.

By a double or triple nipping loop (2), we can get a "nipping tube" long enough, to engulf a more pronounced twist.
However, we should be careful and should better avoid using a too-long such nipping tube, because then it may easily revolve around itself, and make the whole construction quite unbalanced and unstable.

2. http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=2981.msg17791#msg17791
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: xarax on September 07, 2014, 06:50:02 PM: Quote from: Dan_Lehman on September 07, 2014, 04:52:30 PM
This is a variant that hopes to deliver tension immediately to the turNip, in contrast to the original structure which requires the tension to be transmitted through the line around the object

The direct delivery of tension, during tying / tightening, which may be considered an advantage, means also a direct delivery of tension during un-tying / un-tightening - which is definitely a disadvantage...
The Achilles heel of the each line is located near the end of its course around the bound objects, in the proximity of the nipping loop - because any pull of it ( by the displacement of one of the bound objects, for example ) in this area, will be directly transferred to its continuation, and to the end of it, the tail end, inside the nipping loop. ( A pull of the line coming from an area far away from this, to be transferred to the nipping loop, it will first have to confront the friction forces generated between the line and the bound objects along its path around them. Therefore, such a pull will only be in-direct, and its force will be dissipated and reduced ). As we approach the final "lock", the Gleipnir nipping turn, any pull is more effective in/during tightening, but also in/during untightening the binder ! ). In the binder#35, both Achilles heels, of both lines, are located in the same area - and this fact can NOT be considered a safety measure ! :)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: dmgadct on October 16, 2014, 12:19:22 AM: As an electrician I have used the Icicle Hitch to pull wire. The standard method is starting with a clove hitch a foot or so back on the wire, or group of wires, followed by a series of half hitches working your way up to the end and finishing it off with a layer of electrical tape. The Icicle Hitch works great when you have to re-position the pulling rope on the wire to get another bite. I use the bowline quite often in the trade. Splicing an eye in three stranded rope is sometimes required on the job. I use many others for oddball things around the job site as well.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on October 02, 2015, 12:03:46 AM: While I was on vacation recently I saw this "Knot Tie Board" outside of a store in Belfast, Maine. Most of the instructions were sun faded and the cordage was missing in several spots. A very small reference to the maritime history of this coastal town. The only knots in sight in any of the stores were a few monkey fist knots (made in China) and glass balls (also China) with a crude net cover. No regional knot tying presence at all.
(http://i.imgur.com/rqSbUmF.jpg)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: JD on October 27, 2015, 05:31:51 PM: In my mind, I find it strange that such a very simple knot can hold an anchor

(http://snag.gy/p9X4R.jpg)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: SS369 on October 27, 2015, 06:48:02 PM: It looks primarily decorative and the rope is seized as well.
I wonder how authentic it is?

SS
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: JD on October 28, 2015, 03:08:45 PM: Now seeing that it is HMS Victory, you would like to think that it is totally authentic? Would be interesting to hear what other have to say.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on October 28, 2015, 07:27:07 PM: The picture shows cotton rope when an anchor cable would have been hemp at least 7 inches in diameter for a ship the size of the Victory. The cable would I think have been heavily seized to the ring on the anchor not just half hitched (though a half hitch may have been supported by the seizing). This is plainly decorative for the benefit of the public - the rope shown has no practical use on a warship like this.

Sweeney
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on October 28, 2015, 09:12:26 PM: Quote from: Sweeney on October 28, 2015, 07:27:07 PM
The picture shows cotton rope when an anchor cable would have been hemp at least 7 inches in diameter for a ship the size of the Victory. The cable would I think have been heavily seized to the ring on the anchor not just half hitched (though a half hitch may have been supported by the seizing). This is plainly decorative for the benefit of the public - the rope shown has no practical use on a warship like this.

Sweeney
Methinks there need be better vision here among the replies:

1) the rope IMO is nylon or polyester --note the end, the
seemingly melted strands (though chemical whipping can
look the same)--; I don't see reason to conclude "cotton",
anyway. And it IS cable-laid, and stouter than what can
be seen at the other end of the anchor.
(Finding historically authentic rope might've been both
hard to do and, hmmm, dubious re serving for use --does
this ship ever move about?)

2) And the knot is one of those "cinch"es shown in ABOK
which have long puzzled me, for the multiple seizings of
the turned end would come under force only in
sequence ("united we DON'T stand"), one taking
the load and only if it fails will another be loaded (much)!?
(Hmmm, well, maybe I'm off here : the S.Part's pull will
try to open the seized turn, and so all seizings will get
some load, but still it seems as though the one at the
entry to the turn will be most heavily loaded!?)

3) And it's interesting to see that the RING ITSELF
has a cordage covering --to what purpose, that?!

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on October 29, 2015, 09:39:39 AM: Quote from: Dan_Lehman on October 28, 2015, 09:12:26 PM

1) the rope IMO is nylon or polyester --note the end, the
seemingly melted strands (though chemical whipping can
look the same)--; I don't see reason to conclude "cotton",
anyway. And it IS cable-laid, and stouter than what can
be seen at the other end of the anchor.
(Finding historically authentic rope might've been both
hard to do and, hmmm, dubious re serving for use --does
this ship ever move about?)

Looking at an enlarged picture (as I did) the surface of the rope shows the fluffy bits typical of slightly worn bleached cotton - as is the colour and texture. In addition although cable laid cotton was once common among the canal boating community for example (it is now very difficult to get) I have never seen cable laid man-made fibre rope - anything bigger than 40mm eg mooring ropes is multiplait of some sort. Be interesting if JD could find out what the rope actually is.

Sweeney
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on October 31, 2018, 04:15:00 PM: I found this one yesterday in my local craft store. It is used to tie a bundle of hardwood broom handles, allowing them to be loosened and re-tightened easily.

A bit of a surprise when you realise what it is.

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Sweeney on October 31, 2018, 04:41:37 PM: Nice knot for the purpose - take one out and tighten the cord - but a bit of shock to actually see it in use!

Sweeney
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on October 31, 2018, 05:02:31 PM: A shock indeed, I only wish I could remember how to spell it.

It is one of the useful knots I teach in Bushcraft sessions. Quite a surprise to find it in my local Craft Center.

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on November 01, 2018, 06:09:41 PM: Quote from: DerekSmith on October 31, 2018, 04:15:00 PM
I found this one yesterday in my local craft store. It is used to tie a bundle of hardwood broom handles, allowing them to be loosened and re-tightened easily.

A bit of a surprise when you realise what it is.

Derek
Ask them where they learned this knot --perhaps
from a someONE who ... browses the Net!

Good find!

:)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on November 01, 2018, 07:11:49 PM: I know the store owner and asked him where he learnt the knot. He told me the handles arrived bound with plastic banding around them, and when he sold two, the banding slid to the floor and the whole bundle flopped all over the place - he had intended to rebundle them with Ducktape, but next time he went past the pile, they were tied up as shown. There are a whole load of crafters use the store for lessons and demonstrations, so he has no idea who tied them up.

He asked me why I was interested in a bunch of broom handles and had no idea of the perfect nature of that particular knot for that particular purpose. When I showed him how to use it he was amazed at how useful it was and had me show him how to tie it. You never know, it is so simple to make, he might actually use it next time he has a loose bundle that needs sorting out.

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on November 02, 2018, 12:32:01 PM: I do not recognize this knot and am not able to reproduce it. Could you present a untightened close up of it so I can start using it. Thanks in advance. Tont
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: GlasafMT on November 02, 2018, 01:22:11 PM: I'd also like to know the name of this knot - it looks pretty useful!

I'd guess from the image that it's made from twisting a half hitch in the middle and passing both ends through the loop that's made?
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Wed on November 02, 2018, 02:41:00 PM: It all started with this post: http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.0 (http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1449.0)

Gleipnir the user disappeared. But his knot was given the name gleipnir in his honour.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on November 02, 2018, 02:50:48 PM: Thank you Wed. I am familiar with the Gleipnir knot and have used it with a single twist. I did not recognize it when the additional twist was added. Senior moment. Tony
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on November 02, 2018, 08:17:43 PM: Quote from: asemery on November 02, 2018, 02:50:48 PM
Thank you Wed. I am familiar with the Gleipnir knot and have used it with a single twist. I did not recognize it when the additional twist was added. Senior moment. Tony

There is only one twist in this observed example of the 'G' knot.

(http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1017.0;attach=23565;image)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on November 02, 2018, 11:11:06 PM: DerekSmith,
The red and blue strands appearing in the middle of the 'nip' made it appear to me as if two twists were involved. On closer inspection using a magnifying glass i see my error. Thanks for clearing it up. Tony
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on November 08, 2018, 10:55:24 PM: The cord is a substantial (half inch) hollow braid of some very slick material. My guess is that it is some low stretch high tensile cord.

The hitch is nothing but the Simple Hitch #1594 made into a plastic former, with the end tucked for tidiness through the pivot hole.

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Brianne163 on November 11, 2018, 11:38:59 PM: Hi Tony
I am not allowed to reply to personal massages at this stage. Just saw your query, been away a while.
Answer to your question re Johnny Debt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfTWgMTqGqY
Regards
Brian
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on December 16, 2018, 02:44:02 PM: Not a very big picture frame (only about 10" x 6"), so it should be able to hold - just...
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 18, 2018, 12:12:00 AM: Quote from: DerekSmith on November 08, 2018, 10:55:24 PM
My guess is that it is some low stretch high tensile cord.
!! And using such expensive and excessively strong
material with a plastic connector makes any sense?! ::)
.:. => polypropylene. (And beware UV degradation,
though it can be somewhat ameliorated w/proper
additives to the material (and black vs. blue).)

;)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 18, 2018, 12:13:49 AM: Quote from: DerekSmith on December 16, 2018, 02:44:02 PM
Not a very big picture frame (only about 10" x 6"), so it should be able to hold - just...
One good turn deserves another!
(The firsTwo "throws" having collapsed into the
clove h., so indicating a granny'd form.)

Thanks!
;)
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on December 28, 2018, 01:04:26 AM: Here, the "wild" is cordage in venetian (window) blinds
discarded in favor of replacements, the discarded ones
being of unknown age. (Alas, as of course the supporting
hardware for the blinds --i.e., what is screwed into the
window sill to hold the blinds top frame-- is included in
each blinds box and never used --the old suffices to hold
the replacement blind. So, ... made, boxed, sealed, sent,
and into the trash w/o a second's use/benefit to anything!
(I've salvaged & saved now 25 such boxes of brackets &
screws ... , but to what end? Who will ever need these
things, which likely come with any new blinds bought?)

I have two photos of drawings of the knotting; my illustrations
are mostly AS FOUND and not loosened for the sake of showing
structure --maybe I made some concessions thus. One of
the blinds is from an older vintage (w/me a while), maybe
a different maker; the arrangement and cordage differ
from most everything else I've found
(just two pieces of line --one long, one half-length--
joined into a single stopper knot (in use; eye knot in form)
for a single conical pull housing
(others are 3 lines of 3 lengths each into a conical pull housing) ).

The cordage is a fine/thin/well-made (finely stranded)
double-braid (at least in one that I've separated sheath
from core).

I was/am a bit surprised that the knotting has some
variety, some *individuality* to it, and not all done
by or as though by a machine --yea!

It is the overall 2-lines structure shown in photo #2
that impresses me : it is what I'd think would be most
natural & well effective for making a 3-leg pot bridle
for round conch (whelk) pots, which are raised straight
upwards. The longer line forms the eye and the shorter
one is tied into that eye; why not do the whole lot in
one fell swoop of an overhand?! --but I've never seen
that, but rather some other joining where the 3rd leg
is inserted one way or another into the OH eye knot.

--dl*
====

ps : "venetian" gets red-underscored as a misspelling
here & in my Hotmail!?
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: tomh on August 13, 2019, 09:06:00 PM: Here's a life-sized knotting sculpture by the harbour in Victoria, BC, Canada. The real mooring ring that it's based on is nearby.
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 01, 2020, 02:48:39 AM: Egadz, yes, it has been FAR longer than "120 days" since
we've seen a post here,
but the point of this thread was to continually collect
information --sightings, mostly-- of actual-factual knots
in use.

To that end, I'll just revive the thread with a URLink
to some of the Alaskan crab fishers videos. In this
particular one, I'm struck by the apparent TWIN
leg snoods/gangions (tied-to-longline connections
to pot bridles) coming up with these relatively small
pots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E9-Ql-WqrI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E9-Ql-WqrI)

There are some big pots early on.
But at 10:29 one can see that THE SNOOD IS UNTIED
by the fellow at the rail & pot-line hauler,
who hands the detached pot to near fellow in yellow,
who empties and tosses the pot away.
One can see that it's a LOOP/eye tied into the long
line, and the snood is slip-hitched to that sling!
And again ... at 10:41, the untying done quickly
and an empty sling is all we see (and the pot &
capture must not weigh all that much).
11:18 gives a better, side view of the fellow
bringing up the pots. I'm guessing it's a
slipped sheet bend, and then see that the
snood joins a bridle of another, dark piece of
rope tied to two points at the top of the pot,
the snood making probably a sheet-bend/BWL
tying loop through the folded bight as the 3rd
bridle leg, tied to the larger bottom ring.

--new to me.

Now, at 2:48 a big pot is brought up, a dble
(or trpl?) sheet bend to OH eye knot, but I can't
make out the 2-leg bridle hitches.

At 7:28, big rope, and another oddity to me :
seems that a thimble holds a stopped snood
w/long stopper tail spliced/tied to a float (which
was surely way under the water?!) --an anchor
bend form of dbl. OH. (And then the rope
gets coiled!)

--dl*
====
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on May 04, 2020, 06:23:53 PM: https://www.flickr.com/photos/106821818@N03/48041780243/in/album-72157708977292101/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/106821818@N03/48041780243/in/album-72157708977292101/)

More from the aquatic zone.

:)

(edit to add)
https://www.seattlepi.com/news/slideshow/A-Dangerous-Season-for-Crabbing-6293/item-85307.php (https://www.seattlepi.com/news/slideshow/A-Dangerous-Season-for-Crabbing-6293/item-85307.php)
and re
https://www.alaskafishradio.com/lots-of-ak-fishing-meetings-and-fish-forecasts/ (https://www.alaskafishradio.com/lots-of-ak-fishing-meetings-and-fish-forecasts/)
Here, in the first photo, is a typical Alaskan crab
[[sorry to confuse, but THIS photo came up in
an article re photographer & many photos,
filled with advertisements, too, alas;
somehow now I've got just this pic? fine]]

pot (700-800 pounds, empty) being brought up
to the rail (note the ice!!). The hoist has hooked
the bridle below the overhand I think eye knot
(loading "the shelf", to rockclimbers), to which eye
a double or triple sheet bend is tied.

I cannot make out the bridle hitches to the pot.
I think we can assume clove hitches ON the pot,
but what is it away above the blue sleeves
--the tail of which points either perpendicular to
or along with the twin legs (which would not be
the case for an overhand or fisherman's eye).
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: Dan_Lehman on March 17, 2021, 01:32:16 AM: Looking over a photographer's FLICKR images,
I find Knots In The Wild --lobster-pot bridles!

Take a gander; can you see/determine the knotting?
(I think I see 3 variations on the theme, all on the
righthand side (viewer's) of the bridle.)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54602555@N08/50317634832/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/54602555@N08/50317634832/)

Note the substantial diameter rope wrapping the sides of the pot!

(-;
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: DerekSmith on May 16, 2021, 05:11:38 PM: A nice simple hitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZY0ps8Stz0

Derek
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: KC on May 17, 2021, 09:15:28 AM: slick!
Title: Re: Knots **In The Wild**
Post by: asemery on May 17, 2021, 02:06:41 PM: Quote from: DerekSmith on May 16, 2021, 05:11:38 PM
A nice simple hitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZY0ps8Stz0

Derek
Thank you